DIY enthusiasts and electrical work.

[Pete999]

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

 

[Deuce]

Why not 2nd fix it then too?

Because I'm creating new circuits and not a spark is the easy answer. I could complete and ensure it's safe but I can't self certify.

I employ the services of a few sparks through my business, and I can double check what to route where with them in advance (in this case no checking needed, it's literally just a 32a ring). When it's all in but not hooked up, they can make the final connections, test and certify.

In short, by saving them the laborious part of the work I can pay them in retained loyalty as we have a working relationship, and some beer.

 

[TJ Anderson]

Because I'm creating new circuits and not a spark is the easy answer. I could complete and ensure it's safe but I can't self certify.

I employ the services of a few sparks through my business, and I can double check what to route where with them in advance (in this case no checking needed, it's literally just a 32a ring). When it's all in but not hooked up, they can make the final connections, test and certify.

In short, by saving them the laborious part of the work I can pay them in retained loyalty as we have a working relationship, and some beer.

If you've got an electrician who will do what you want for you then you might as well 2nd fix too, then even less for them to do and you can get more experience. They can still check your terminations as part of their initial verification of the install.

 

[Deuce]

If you've got an electrician who will do what you want for you then you might as well 2nd fix too, then even less for them to do and you can get more experience. They can still check your terminations as part of their initial verification of the install.

That's a grey area, it means trusting my connections upon visual inspection, or literally pulling each connection to check it was stripped correctly and full contact is made ( in the same time they can just make their own connections). My connections would easily pass resistance testing even if they weren't 'ideal'.

Maybe I'm too nice a person but for me, for the sake of paying for a little time for them to be 100% confident in what they're signing off on, it's a good balance. I have no doubt they would trust my connections, but still I'm happy to pay for a few hours for them to own the job they're signing off on. And as I mentioned, I'm mostly paying in beer anyway, and I'll often go as far as to help them drink their payment.

 

[Midwest]

I've not been keeping up with this thread, and not read every post, so apologies if this has already been mentioned here, or if it has been mentioned elsewhere.

Whilst in my throne room, I was reading the latest copy of PE, when I came across this piece;

NAPIT Sets Out Significant Reforms to the Building Regu - https://www.napit.org.uk/news/article/NAPIT-Sets-Out-Significant-Reforms-to-the-Building-Regulations.aspx

So thats me out of stuff.

 

[Deuce]

I've not been keeping up with this thread, and not read every post, so apologies if this has already been mentioned here, or if it has been mentioned elsewhere.

Whilst in my throne room, I was reading the latest copy of PE, when I came across this piece;

NAPIT Sets Out Significant Reforms to the Building Regu - https://www.napit.org.uk/news/article/NAPIT-Sets-Out-Significant-Reforms-to-the-Building-Regulations.aspx

So thats me out of stuff.

Further tightening of regulation seems pointless, at this stage they may as well just simply state that ANY electrical work of any nature must be carried out by a trading, qualified spark and be done with it.

A sad day for DIYers such as myself but it's already pretty tough to be certain of what I am permitted to do.

 

[Midwest]

they may as well just simply state that ANY electrical work of any nature must be carried out by a trading, qualified spark and be done with it.

Thats exactly Napit's proposal for the domestic market.

 

[Deuce]

Thats exactly Napit's proposal for the domestic market.

To include all minor works too? For example, replacing a light fitting on like for like basis. If so, that's gonna become annoying, frankly a little castrating..

 

[Midwest]

Couldn't agree more.

Up until the end of May, I was in a scheme. If these proposals were taken up, from June onwards I would not be complying with the 'legal requirements', even to work in my own house.

I do agree though, that something should be done about the scope of electrical diy work, even if it is in your own house.

 

[telectrix]

I've not been keeping up with this thread, and not read every post, so apologies if this has already been mentioned here, or if it has been mentioned elsewhere.

Whilst in my throne room, I was reading the latest copy of PE, when I came across this piece;

NAPIT Sets Out Significant Reforms to the Building Regu - https://www.napit.org.uk/news/article/NAPIT-Sets-Out-Significant-Reforms-to-the-Building-Regulations.aspx

So thats me out of stuff.

.that statement has some merit in that it calls for all electrical work to be carried out by a competent electrician. with which i agree 100%. reading between the lines however, it's advocating more income for the various robdog scams.

 

[Deuce]

.that statement has some merit in that it calls for all electrical work to be carried out by a competent electrician. with which i agree 100%. reading between the lines however, it's advocating more income for the various robdog scams.

If it goes far enough to cover replacing of lights/sockets like for like then B&Q and such will no doubt start offering a fitting service with every such item sold, and probably at surprisingly low cost "Would you like us to schedule an electrician to fit these for you? It's £10 per light including electrical safety testing"... they could easily afford to do that as their in house sparks would be booked up back to back 40 hours a week, akin to a sky/broadband engineers schedule.

That's progress..

 

[Midwest]

If it goes far enough to cover replacing of lights/sockets like for like then B&Q and such will no doubt start offering a fitting service with every such item sold, and probably at surprisingly low cost "Would you like us to schedule an electrician to fit these for you? It's £10 per light including electrical safety testing"... they could easily afford to do that as their in house sparks would be booked up back to back 40 hours a week, akin to a sky/broadband engineers schedule.

That's progress..

It would be if the sockets were fitted properly by a competent electrician, who tested the final circuit to see if it was functioning correctly, and also the RCD if that was fitted.

I've just done 5 years of domestic work. I've seen some right lash up's, where diy's have replaced some standard white plastic to some fancy metal ones, spurred off etc. I had to correctly re-connect a customer Class 1 luminaire, where some handyman (aimed squarely at the over 60's) who decided to use the live & earth instead. Etc etc. And then there's the kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters, who are doing their bit to make things unsafe.

 

[telectrix]

It would be if the sockets were fitted properly by a competent electrician, who tested the final circuit to see if it was functioning correctly, and also the RCD if that was fitted.

I've just done 5 years of domestic work. I've seen some right lash up's, where diy's have replaced some standard white plastic to some fancy metal ones, spurred off etc. I had to correctly re-connect a customer Class 1 luminaire, where some handyman (aimed squarely at the over 60's) who decided to use the live & earth instead. Etc etc. And then there's the kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters, who are doing their bit to make things unsafe.

you missed out builders.

 

[Deuce]

It would be if the sockets were fitted properly by a competent electrician, who tested the final circuit to see if it was functioning correctly, and also the RCD if that was fitted.

I've just done 5 years of domestic work. I've seen some right lash up's, where diy's have replaced some standard white plastic to some fancy metal ones, spurred off etc. I had to correctly re-connect a customer Class 1 luminaire, where some handyman (aimed squarely at the over 60's) who decided to use the live & earth instead. Etc etc. And then there's the kitchen fitters and bathroom fitters, who are doing their bit to make things unsafe.

I'm sure B&Q would be certain that technically things were done correctly, they would have to test the circuit, including the RCD if there is one. My biggest concern is that sloppy, half arsed work will normally test fine, but it will still be sloppy and half arsed. Especially if it were done by a young unambitious spark that has a schedule of fitting 120 light fittings a week and nothing else.

In a way it would be great to have a very affordable short notice service for fitting lights/sockets simply to deter bodgers from having a go themselves, at least everything would be tested that way. I just imagine a spark living that kind of always busy and tedious existence isn't going to be the most careful pair of hands in your home. The same way as most new houses come with wonky switches and sockets.. It's because they guys fitting them are bored out their minds probably.

 

[telectrix]

It's because they guys fitting them are bored out their minds probably.

more likely it's unqualified, inexperienced lads on minimum wage, employed by developers to get the job done on the cheap.

 

[Pete999]

It's because they guys fitting them are bored out their minds probably.

more likely it's unqualified, inexperienced lads on minimum wage, employed by developers to get the job done on the cheap.

Yep totally agree, not the guys fault entirely, should be checked over by a QS, seen it many times.

 

[Midwest]

In a way it would be great to have a very affordable short notice service for fitting lights/sockets simply to deter bodgers from having a go themselves, at least everything would be tested that way. I just imagine a spark living that kind of always busy and tedious existence isn't going to be the most careful pair of hands in your home. The same way as most new houses come with wonky switches and sockets.. It's because they guys fitting them are bored out their minds probably.

I was often asked to fit luminaires for people that they bought from the likes of B&Q etc. I usually charged £30 for a simple install, with just a Zs test & no cert. I often got some side way glances, and no calls back.

With a bit of research, I realise I wasn't charging enough, for example John Lewis offered a fitment service for £69, for the first hour £49 thereafter.

Don't think its boredom with new builds, just price. That said, I've moved into one recently, and its not all bad, except the spider web wiring in the loft.

 

[Pete999]

Another possible reason for bad workmanship in new builds, and I'm sad to say I had a lot of experience of new builds during my House Bashing days, during the building booms of the early 70s, was the use of Labour, possibly 1 skilled Electrician as a lead person with 4 or 5 "Apprentices in the later stages of their tenure as Apprentices".

This would have been all they had ever done, and had in most cases never been offered the chance of doing any Commercial or Industrial type work, solely because the Management found their usefulness on housing developments far to useful to give them any other sort of work experience.

I ran a site like this, on one occasion, I had a Mortgage and a family to feed and clothe, so my concern was their welfare not the Lads on site.

Many of them thought that House bashing was the B all and end all electrical work, and either stuck at it or decided to go it alone and work for themselves, taking the skills, or lack of, with them, to fester on in infinitude.

I'm sure there will be many of us who recognize this sort of thing, it's therefore not surprising we have the sad state of affairs that our trade is in today, bung a few cables in a new build, give up College and carry on with the basic qualifications and the only experience will be housing work.

And most of that work will be priced so low that there will be little or no scope for work ethics, and pride in their work,

 

[Midwest]

I think some might take umbrage at your remarks there Pete. After all not all new builds are the same, and some think domestic work is a noble cause.

I worked in some big commercial & industrial projects in my time, and some of them were just lashed in as well; just purely down to price.

 

[Deuce]

Another possible reason for bad workmanship in new builds, and I'm sad to say I had a lot of experience of new builds during my House Bashing days, during the building booms of the early 70s, was the use of Labour, possibly 1 skilled Electrician as a lead person with 4 or 5 "Apprentices in the later stages of their tenure as Apprentices".

This would have been all they had ever done, and had in most cases never been offered the chance of doing any Commercial or Industrial type work, solely because the Management found their usefulness on housing developments far to useful to give them any other sort of work experience.

I ran a site like this, on one occasion, I had a Mortgage and a family to feed and clothe, so my concern was their welfare not the Lads on site.

Many of them thought that House bashing was the B all and end all electrical work, and either stuck at it or decided to go it alone and work for themselves, taking the skills, or lack of, with them, to fester on in infinitude.

I'm sure there will be many of us who recognize this sort of thing, it's therefore not surprising we have the sad state of affairs that our trade is in today, bung a few cables in a new build, give up College and carry on with the basic qualifications and the only experience will be housing work.

And most of that work will be priced so low that there will be little or no scope for work ethics, and pride in their work,

The thing is, with increasing regulation more electrical work will need to be done by a professional, and it will be a lot more of the very basic work.

I know it's par for the course on these boards to gently mock the efforts of the DIYer, but the reality is the majority of the millions of new light fittings and switches sold at retail stores in this country are currently not fitted by a professional. People buy a light fitting, or their new USB wall sockets etc, and they DIY it. And to be fair, the majority of those people will get on fine and not create any sort of dangerous situation. With increasing regulation all that work will for the first time demand a qualified spark.

That's going to create a lot of extra work but I expect it will become a 'price per light/socket swap' battle to be the cheapest. Some sparks will play that game, they will have order books full of cheap, samey work everyday of the week. Not much of a career but it happens, same as satellite dish fitters etc.

 

[Pete999]

I think some might take umbrage at your remarks there Pete. After all not all new builds are the same, and some think domestic work is a noble cause.

I worked in some big commercial & industrial projects in my time, and some of them were just lashed in as well; just purely down to price.

You may be right Middy, I was just expressing my thoughts from my experiences from a while back, could be that some of the lash ups you have quoted are caused by, ex house bashers who know no difference, I'm not saying that is the case, but give it a thought, there should be no case for lash ups, it's down to the price and thoughts of people offering ridiculous prices that cause bad workmanship in the first place, brings a phrase to mind but I'm not sure it may raise peoples ire to a new level, pay peanuts and you get Monkeys, rings true, oh dear I could be in trouble here, but I speak my mind.

 

[Midwest]

You may be right Middy, I was just expressing my thoughts from my experiences from a while back, could be that some of the lash ups you have quoted are caused by, ex house bashers who know no difference

Nope, going back some time now, but some those sparks had only ever done industrial/commercial and were as rough as a badgers arse. Just because you label yourself as something, doesn't make you superior to someone else.

 

[Deuce]

...pay peanuts and you get Monkeys, rings true, oh dear I could be in trouble here, but I speak my mind.

Same in all industries. Name your price for a job, and someone somewhere will do it for that price. There is always someone who has an urgent financial commitment to meet and had several other jobs cancelled at short notice etc.

The reality is that good professionals with a fantastic reputation are far less likely to end up in a position where they feel they have to take whatever is offered, so the cheap customer is more likely to get less skilled/diligent person. And perhaps worse still, whoever takes the job for very low pay is most likely going to resent it to a degree, and use the low pay to justify whatever shortcuts they need to take to get it done double quick. I've seen it countless times on site myself, where someone has taken a largish contract on for cheap, subsequently they don't have the manpower they need and they run around frantically swearing and complaining about the situation, and generally excusing anything less than ideal on the basis there isn't the time or money to do it a better way.

The above won't always be the case, but in general, I think it's fair and realistic.

 

[Midwest]

I know it's par for the course on these boards to gently mock the efforts of the DIYer, but the reality is the majority of the millions of new light fittings and switches sold at retail stores in this country are currently not fitted by a professional. People buy a light fitting, or their new USB wall sockets etc, and they DIY it. And to be fair, the majority of those people will get on fine and not create any sort of dangerous situation. With increasing regulation all that work will for the first time demand a qualified spark.

I sort of agree with your comments. But the only reason why people attempt this type of work, is purely to save money. I gave up servicing my own vehicles many years ago. I still wince when I have to pay up, but I haven't the tools, time & expertise to service them.

Without suitable test equipment, the DIY'er has no idea whether the replacment socket he has fitted is safe, nor if the metal light luminaire is correctly earthed or not according to its Class.

 

[Deuce]

I sort of agree with your comments. But the only reason why people attempt this type of work, is purely to save money. I gave up servicing my own vehicles many years ago. I still wince when I have to pay up, but I haven't the tools, time & expertise to service them.

Without suitable test equipment, the DIY'er has no idea whether the replacment socket he has fitted is safe, nor if the metal light luminaire is correctly earthed or not according to its Class.

I get that, but that's a separate issue. The point is that millions are doing these little jobs currently, and with more regulation, they will have to stop (albeit some won't).. So all that fairly uninteresting work will get picked up by the trade.

In your area alone how many hundreds of light fitting get swapped each week? Every time a house sells the owners typically run around and swap all their nice light fittings for basic roses. You want all that work? Knowing that they will resent paying at all and will want the cheapest price each time...

 

[Pete999]

Nope, going back some time now, but some those sparks had only ever done industrial/commercial and were as rough as a badgers arse. Just because you label yourself as something, doesn't make you superior to someone else.

Not saying anyone is superior or inferior to anyone else Mate, just stating how it appears to me, and many othere I should imagine.

 

[Midwest]

I'm not sure its about getting the 'work', but more about things being done safely & correctly. I see that you are a relatively new member, and nothing in you profile that suggests your competency.

If you care to peruse this forum. especially the DIY section, you witness dozens if not hundreds of threads of DIY'ers who have tried to install a new luminaire, replace faceplates etc and have become stumped from a fairly incurious task, to something that has left without power or lighting.

Its about educating people of their limitations.

This week my heating system packed up. One of zones vales packed up. I replaced it. Then my gas boiler wouldn't start. I tried to see if it was something simple, and surmised it was the fan. Could of done it myself, not withstanding the legality. But I chose & pay to have a competent gas engineer fault find & rectify.

 

[Midwest]

Not saying anyone is superior or inferior to anyone else Mate, just stating how it appears to me, and many othere I should imagine.

What 'appears' to you Pete?

 

[Pete999]

What 'appears' to you Pete?

Visions of House Bashers making a right mess of things.

 

[Deuce]

I'm not sure its about getting the 'work', but more about things being done safely & correctly. I see that you are a relatively new member, and nothing in you profile that suggests your competency.

If you care to peruse this forum. especially the DIY section, you witness dozens if not hundreds of threads of DIY'ers who have tried to install a new luminaire, replace faceplates etc and have become stumped from a fairly incurious task, to something that has left without power or lighting.

Its about educating people of their limitations.

This week my heating system packed up. One of zones vales packed up. I replaced it. Then my gas boiler wouldn't start. I tried to see if it was something simple, and surmised it was the fan. Could of done it myself, not withstanding the legality. But I chose & pay to have a competent gas engineer fault find & rectify.

I do understand all you're saying. I understand that the reason for regulation is safety, and in my opinion, anyone who can't test their work shouldn't do any electrical work.

But my post you responded to was in relation to a discussion about the quality of work you often get from sparks on the treadmill, going from one basic job to the next. The reality is if no one can change their own lights/sockets, there is going to be a heck of a lot more of that type of work.

 

[oracle]

Getting a plumber to repair my boiler was difficult. After 5 or six calls one guy said he would come but it cost £100 to arrive at my door.

He came and asked for the money so I told him I would pay him before he left and could he look at the boiler.

We went to the bathroom and he glanced at it then said he didn't know the make and could I pay him now I said lucky you look there's information and drawings on the top of the boiler.

He read them and fiddled with it for a bit then said it was an electrical fault and I needed to call an electrician and could I pay him now. I said you are really lucky, I am an electrician

He pointed to a part of the boiler and said this valve isn't opening, so I checked for voltage and said it's got a supply your valve is stuck.

I don't know where to get a new one so can you pay me now. I gave him the drawings again and showed him the contact details for the supplier

He phoned them and ordered one. He said that it would take two days and cost £150 including fitting and could I pay him now. I gave him the £100 and said I would pay the rest when he got the boiler working

Two days later the job was done and I paid him the balance. Who said you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink?

 

[telectrix]

well done. you actually managed to get a wet-pants to do some work for his money.