Do tails HAVE to be upgraded? | Page 5 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Do tails HAVE to be upgraded? in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

I haven't the foggiest idea why anyone would want to replace 16mm tails for 25mm on 60/80A supply fuses?? What are you actually trying to achieve?? A 100A supply fuse will need a much lower Ze/Zs to function correctly, i wonder how many of you electricians conducting EICR's and the like, ever check the Zs value against the supply fuse rating, operating requirement??
 
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I'm afraid these are the type of jobs I walk away from then. If a customer doesn't want it done properly.
There is nothing 'proper' about doing unnecessary work and charging a customer for it.

We are not talking about shoddy poor work but leaving perfectly adequate conductors in place.

Would you advocate using 4mm for ring circuits or 16mm for cookers 'to be on the safe side'?

What about a flat with a sub main - replace with 25mm?
 
I haven't the foggiest idea why anyone would want to replace 16mm tails for 25mm on 60/80A supply fuses?? What are you actually trying to achieve??

Maybe compliance with the supplier's service requirements....

• Connection tails between the consumer’s installation and the meter are supplied by
the consumer. These must be a minimum cross-sectional area of 25mm2 although
larger tails should be provided and may be required dependent on load requirements.
• Test Earth impedance Ze. The MEA will test the earth impedance of the installation
against the following values:-
• Overhead line fed circuit (TT) will require a separate earth to be supplied by
the consumer. The separate earth for this installation must not exceed 200Ω.
The consumer must provide an earth connection with a minimum crosssectional
area of 16mm2 and a suitable test point adjacent to the incoming
service cut-out.
• Underground fed circuit (TNS). The MEA will provide an earth terminal at the
point of connection. The earth fault loop impedance for this connection must
not exceed 0.8Ω for a standard domestic single-phase supply. The consumer
must provide an earth connection with a minimum cross-sectional area of
16mm2.
 
Oh dear. The OSG is WRONG.

Although it does also refer to section 1.3 but then you have to think.

Have a look at BGB Table 4D1A.
 
Maybe compliance with the supplier's service requirements....

• Connection tails between the consumer’s installation and the meter are supplied by
the consumer. These must be a minimum cross-sectional area of 25mm2 although
larger tails should be provided and may be required dependent on load requirements.
• Test Earth impedance Ze. The MEA will test the earth impedance of the installation
against the following values:-
• Overhead line fed circuit (TT) will require a separate earth to be supplied by
the consumer. The separate earth for this installation must not exceed 200Ω.
The consumer must provide an earth connection with a minimum crosssectional
area of 16mm2 and a suitable test point adjacent to the incoming
service cut-out.
• Underground fed circuit (TNS). The MEA will provide an earth terminal at the
point of connection. The earth fault loop impedance for this connection must
not exceed 0.8Ω for a standard domestic single-phase supply. The consumer
must provide an earth connection with a minimum cross-sectional area of
16mm2.



Where did you get this numbty quote from?? I don't suppose you even noticed that it completely contradicts itself.

Perhaps you can also enlighten us, as to why a 200 ohm Ra value TT system would warrant anything like a 16mm earth connection?? lol!!
 
I'm well aware of the relevant BS7671 regs regarding sizing of conductors.

The point, which I obviously failed to get across, is that BS7671 and the OSG are not necessarily the the only requirements when it comes to the "tails", for example this document here ->

http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/mea/customer/forms/servicerequirementsmarch2009.pdf



I can only imagine they are trying to future proof. IMHO, I don't think it contradicts itself - merely specifies min. 25mm lives and 16mm earth.


Is it reasonable to ignore additional requirements, where relevant, just because they don't fit in with accepted practice?

Reading the above would suggest that supplier will refuse connection if their requirements are not met.

The customer paying for a professional electrician would be less than impressed when they need to rip out the 16mm tails and 10mm earth and start again...
 
Izzy, your 'Secret Offshore Island Location' appears to be the Isle of Man where you have your own ways off doing things!
In which case, the Electricity suppliers may well have different requirements/regulations than over here.
You have your own Government as well, don't you?
 
I'm well aware of the relevant BS7671 regs regarding sizing of conductors.
but ignore.

I can only imagine they are trying to future proof.
WHY?

IMHO, I don't think it contradicts itself - merely specifies min. 25mm lives and 16mm earth.
For which there is no need.

Is it reasonable to ignore additional requirements, where relevant, just because they don't fit in with accepted practice?
YES. If pointless.

Reading the above would suggest that supplier will refuse connection if their requirements are not met.
They could, but not because your conductors are not larger than necessary.
Did you know the DNOs use 16mm for 100A supplies?

The customer paying for a professional electrician would be less than impressed when they need to rip out the 16mm tails and 10mm earth and start again...
Why would they have to do that?


Question -

You have a supply with an 80A (or even 60A) fuse.
If the existing conductors have a current carrying capacity of more than 80A please state as many reasons as you can think of for increasing the size of these conductors.
Please note: future proofing does not count as if needed it can be done in the future.

Please learn to think logically and not keep trying to justify something which is unnecessary
 
There's a lot of talk about DNO requirements regarding tail sizes. I don't know about other people's experiences, but from my own DNOs rarely know what their supply to a house consists of. As an example, a recent customer asked the DNO about their supply (fuse size, earthing, etc) as they wanted a new meter along with a rewire. They didn't need a rewire, it turned out to be BS from a 'quote from the van' merchant. Anyway, the customer was told "there is no record of the earthing arrangements on the computer. Your electrician should be able to tell you." The fuse size was given as 60 amp.

So, long one short. The DNO gave an unacceptably long delay and high price to fit an isolator. As luck would have it, the fuse fell out due to a lack of seals on the morning of the CU change. In that condition it was easy to spot the text "100 amp" just under the "English Electric" name.

16mm original tails fitted with no sign of damage or deterioration. I replaced them with 25mm tails for several reasons, anyone without full knowledge of the checks/calcs involved would think it was compulsory to do so (and I'm too lazy/busy to argue the ----), new tails look better, the DNO will be changing the meter soon (good job too as the seals had fallen off of the tail connector cover too!) and the cost to me was small and thus is priced in with a CU change.
 
Maybe compliance with the supplier's service requirements....

• Connection tails between the consumer’s installation and the meter are supplied by
the consumer. These must be a minimum cross-sectional area of 25mm2 although
larger tails should be provided and may be required dependent on load requirements.
• Test Earth impedance Ze. The MEA will test the earth impedance of the installation
against the following values:-
• Overhead line fed circuit (TT) will require a separate earth to be supplied by
the consumer. The separate earth for this installation must not exceed 200Ω.
The consumer must provide an earth connection with a minimum crosssectional
area of 16mm2 and a suitable test point adjacent to the incoming
service cut-out.
• Underground fed circuit (TNS). The MEA will provide an earth terminal at the
point of connection. The earth fault loop impedance for this connection must
not exceed 0.8Ω for a standard domestic single-phase supply. The consumer
must provide an earth connection with a minimum cross-sectional area of
16mm2.

This reads like the rules for new builds not upgrades.
 
Interesting thread, i am registered with elecsa, and on an assessment i was showing a partial rewire with a new ccu and the assessor said i hope the tails have been upgraded to 25mm2 and the earthing conductor to 16mm2, (tncs) which i had done, the assessor said they expect all domestic installations to have upgraded tails to 25mm2 & tn installs must have 16mm2 earthing conductor when changing the ccu. On a different occassion, i installed a ccu on tt installation, & used 6mm mpb & 10mm earthing conductor, i was engaged in a argument with another electrician stating that i should have installed 10mm2 bonds & 16mm2 earthing conductor. I phoned the tech helpline when he was there and they said, 6mm to be used for bonds & earthing conductor. I have always been taught tails over 3m fit switched fuse. The OP, if it was going to be a pain installing new tails no matter how close they were to the ccu, i would keep the existing 16mm tails provided they are adaquate for the installation & install a switched fuse.

Cheers
 
What I tend to do now if the main fuse is 100A and the tails are 16mm and its a nightmare to replace the tails I put an 80A fuse in replace of the 100A which makes the tails acceptable as 16mm can carry about 87A. Job done
 
What I tend to do now if the main fuse is 100A and the tails are 16mm and its a nightmare to replace the tails I put an 80A fuse in replace of the 100A which makes the tails acceptable as 16mm can carry about 87A. Job done

Hum, but you shouldn't be messing with DNO equipment should you!!
 

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