down lights

[colour]

Hi please could you advise, we are renovating a property, the client has asked us to fit to bathroom ceiling 4 x Firestop IP20 down lights mains connected, with 35v bulbs. the loft is fully boarded and no acces from above ceiling, so after drilling the ceiling we find that between plaster board and woodchip floor above there is a gap of 100mm. the fittings have a casing that is aprox 85mm. would this be to close for there to be a fire hazzad there is a good 4inch space aroung proposed fitting. Also the lights are aprox 2.5 mtrs away from any water taps. they will be run on a dimmer switch from ouside in hallway, connected by 1m calble. please advise..Thanks

 

[amberleaf]

General Electrical Installation Requirements . BS-7671:2008 Lighting .

p/89 - Regulation 510.2 requires Manufactures Instructions to be Taken into Account . it is Important to do this in Order . for Example . to Prevent Luminaires becoming a Source of Ignition ( Any Installation Instructions that are considered to be Inappropriate should be Queried with the Manufactures Concerned & Amended installation Instructions Requested )

p/106 . All terminations & Joints . Whether for Low-Voltage ( LV) or Extra Low Voltage ( ELV ) Circuits should enclosed in Accordance with Regulations 526.5. to Prevent Fire Spread should a Loose Connection Occur

As part of the Initial Verification process . the Electrical Installer has a Duty to Ensure that all the Necessary Fire Precautions have been taken .Irrespective of which Party was Responsible for that Element of the Element of the Electrical Work . Regulation 611.3 ( vii )) p/156

 

[amberleaf]

The First Question that you should be asking yourself for bathrooms Lighting

Depends how high it is ?? . is it higher than 2.25 metres . above the Finished Floor ?? ( Downlighting )
Looking at Lights . then ask yourself are they Zone 1 Compatible
Or Protected by 30mA RCD. 17th Edition

Is there a Shower or Bath . just think about how much Moisture there is in a Bathroom ?

 

[amberleaf]

Both Low-Voltage & Mains Downlights are Dimmable .

● Low-Voltage requires room to Breath ( Air Flow ) above the Ceiling . so may Not be Suitable if Space is Limited . Access is difficult or Insulation is Present . The Heat from an Low-Voltage Lamp is mainly Projected Backward . ( Mains ) mainly Forward .

 

[malcolmsanford]

what happens when the client replaces them for ordinary GU10's?

Just to play the devils advocate here, is that our responsibility.

If the customer decides he wants to use torches to light a room then that is his choice. If as the Electrician we highlight the fact that with the loft being boarded out there is a risk of fire if normal halogen torches were fitted, but he could use a more expensive LED lamp that will give him the same light and be safe.

If he agrees and the LED lamps are fitted and the installation is signed off, what the customer does a few months later when a lamp fails is his choice. He would have known the choice of lamp. If we are thinking change of ownership perhaps a couple of years down the line, again my EIC would high light the choice of lamps that were chosen, and I would hope the EIC would be handed over to the new owner with other documents.

I don't think we can nanny state and be responsible for something a customer decides to do perhaps 2 years after we have installed a safe installation.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I was thinking more along the line of the fittings being fitted without the correct clearance being given around the body. The discussion turned to the direction of lower energy producing less heat, suggesting a non compliance with fitting to the manufacturers data might be acceptable. If the client installs normal GU10's and a fire occurs from a result, the fire inspector will pick out the light and the client will declare the electrician that fitted it.
All said and good we can write down agreements with the clients etc, but we have to act as the competent person here. The regulations clearly won't back us up by giving an 'ordinary person' an instruction on how to avoid disaster. As competent persons we should just remove any likelihood of dangers and most definitely not be installing them.

 

[nickblake]

Fire Rated - LED Downlights these are what you want they are a tad expensive to initially install very little heat warrenty for 7 years so no lamps to replace every 5 minuits and around 60mm from front to back check em out .check this out for infor on down lighters Downlighters can they be a fire hazard? | Electrical Safety Council


Malcome have you ever tried the one on the link above i have never seen a down light pus out so much light , ill see if i can do a mini vid later to day so you can see what i mean

 

[malcolmsanford]

Cheers Nick

I have to be honest and say that I have never been a fan of the downlight. It's not just them though, for me it started with the old flood light track system in the 70's, I just don't think they give the right light for a domestic situation, I suppose you could square it away in a kitchen where you would want a brighter light, but I still think there are better alternatives.

To me the downlighter gives you more cons than pros. Because of the heat they generate, lamps do tend to burn out quicker, the heat affects the lamp holder, making connection to the lamp loose, and cables are often scorched. I do concede that perhaps todays downlighter is better constructed, but as I'm an old dinosaur I would not recommend them still.

I do admit that the introduction of LED type will change my mind concerning the heat affect on them. I will just need to see if the light is less intense and focused. I think the name of the light gives it away "spot", it lights a spot, but if the LED or new lamps give a better spread I would change my mind.

 

[colour]

Thank you everyone, the lights are centre in between the joints at 400 centres, casing of the light Ip20 , is 15mm from above woodchip floor. And a good 4" gap around the light cassing. The ceiling is 2.5, from floor. Are they safe to fit . Or do you advise me to inform client not safe, please let me know best option. To avoid heat Issue, thanks, plain English please..

 

[telectrix]

go the 4watt or 5watt led, gu10 fit. can't go wrong. lamps fit straight in your fittings. job done.

 

[amberleaf]

When you Alter Anything in an Building / Installation you are taking “ Full Reasonability for your Actions “ ◄◄◄

For the Younger Members in the Forum out there . ( everything has it’s Knock on Effect )
110.1. Fundamental Principles: Regulations apply to ( *Design . * Erection & Verification of Electrical Installations .

Thermal Effects on Downlights
p/57 414.1.2. The use of SELV or PELV is considered as a Protective measure in all Situation’s ( Zone 1 ) bathroom -
Note : in Certain Locations the requirements of Part 7 Limit the value of the Extra-Low-Voltage . to a value lower than 50V a.c. or 120V d.c.

After spending a fortune on downlights . Fire rated . or ( Fire hoods are still out there ) will you get away with 50mm / 100mm Insulation all over the Downlights , ? ( Firstly . do we have Air Gaps / Ventilation etc. ) Fundamental Principles . that must not be Overlooked .
As Down lights give of Heat .

● They are fitted only for ! Fire & Acoustic Rated Only ◄ ( Insulation takes us into another Matter )

17th Edition BS-7671:2008 .

Selection & Erection of Equipment : ( this will take us down the road of Design ) Downlights / Wiring ?

Domestic Requirements .
Example :- Installation will conform to the Requirements of the Regulations including Cables concealed in Walls . “ Switches “ Cable’s “

What it Means !
Since Cables are Concealed the standard gives a number of ( measures ) in 522.6.6. which are Designed to protect the User from Inadvertently causing a Fault . ( Protection for Safety 17th Edition BS-7671:2008 . End Results ….. The User .

Solution !
A variety of ( Solutions ) are shown for Cables Concealed in Walls . if the Cable is Mechanically Protected & within the ( Zones ) stated Residual Current Protection is not Required . it may be Required to meet another part of the standard though .

- 522.6.6. (iv) be Mechanically Protected against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the Cable by Nails . Screws & the like .or.
55222.6.7. ) where Regulation 55.6.6. applies and the Installation is Not intended to be under the Supervision of a Skilled or Instructed person. A Cable installed in accordance with Regulation 522.6.6. (v) and not complying with Regulation 522.6.6. (i) (ii) (iii) or (iv)
( 522.6.6. - The First ( 4 ) is Mechanically Protected ) (i) – (ii) – (iii) –(iv)

● Shall be provided with Additional Protection by means of an RCD having the Characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1. ( ADS )

Fundamental Principles: Protection for Safety :
Part 4 . chapter 41 / 45

Example .
The Electrical system should be Designed & Installed so that “ Live Parts “ shall not be Accessible & Accessible Conductive Parts should not Cause a Hazard to the User .

Various measures can be Employed to Protect the User(s) . Shielding the Live Parts with Enclosures & Insulation are the most Common . ( Additional Protection is normally provided with Residual Current Device ) RCD .

Insulating the whole system & providing Automatic Disconnection of the Supply .
Definitions ,
- Basic Protection – Encloses . Insulation .
- Fault Protection – Disconnection with MCBs .
- Additional Protection RCD where needed . ( Bathrooms )

Your. Requirements start from the Input to the Consumer Unit . ( Am not taking Like / Like )
Consumers Unit . RCBOs .
Split Load – MCBs RCD . Etc .

In Area that can have an Extra risk for Users . 17th Edition . RCD ( ADS ) in any Location which contains a Bath or Shower ( Lighting does fall under This ) Zones 0.1.2. – outside Zone . Protection against Electric Shock . ( 17th Edition / Part P )

● The measure of Automatic Disconnection of supply is employed for a Circuit supplying ( 13A Socket outlets intended for General Use by Ordinary Persons ) Which of the following does Not contribute to the Provision of Fault Protection ? ( Reinforced Insulation ) No

Protection for Safety . Regulation 411.1. ( ii ) lets . strip away the Wording . Yeah
- Protective Earthing . Yes .
- Protective Equipotential Bonding . Yes .
- Automatic Protection by RCD . Yes . ………….. What it said.s on the Tin . Yeah

( Protective Measures ) . we can say – Fault Protection is provided by (i) – (ii)

● The Effectiveness of protective measures should be Considered with regard to ? ( Maintainability )
Regulation 341.1. (ii) lets . strip away the Wording . Yeah . Protective Measures :- for Safety during the Intended Life … ETC

BS-7671:2008. Part 4 – Protection for Safety .
Strip it down . Chapter 41 – Protection for against “ Electric Shock “ “ Zones “

411 Protective Measure / Automatic Disconnection of Supply ( ADS )

● My Own Opinion : I feel that young Apprentices’ in the Forum should have an Insight into matter that will one day they will come across
Am standing by my Principals . this forum is here to Help All Alike . Amber .

 

[amberleaf]

Just making you Aware of this Matter . “ Insulation “ Downlights .

What happens if the Light get Hot at the Back & Insulation is Touching it ? ( Oop . someone has not done there Job Right ) By removing the Insulation where the Light is . Your are removing the Risk .

● With the New all in One Fire Rated Downlighs ( Fire Integrity of the Ceiling ) . firehoods are a thing off the Past getting .
Example . as for 50mm Insulation Cut-Out . its mainly so that the Fitting doesn’t Overheat . Example Halogen Downlight s run Pretty Hot . if they are covered with Insulation they Run even Hotter which can cause the Fitting itself to Warp or Other Nasty Problems . that will Occur .

● Manufacturers . will State the Clearance around your Fire Rated Down Light . ( as a Rule )

 

[thekingiam]

In case anyone in the future went to change lamps for gu10s leave a live cable behind each lamp so if anyone tried to change them it wil give them a jolt