down lights

[colour]

Hi please could you advise, we are renovating a property, the client has asked us to fit to bathroom ceiling 4 x Firestop IP20 down lights mains connected, with 35v bulbs. the loft is fully boarded and no acces from above ceiling, so after drilling the ceiling we find that between plaster board and woodchip floor above there is a gap of 100mm. the fittings have a casing that is aprox 85mm. would this be to close for there to be a fire hazzad there is a good 4inch space aroung proposed fitting. Also the lights are aprox 2.5 mtrs away from any water taps. they will be run on a dimmer switch from ouside in hallway, connected by 1m calble. please advise..Thanks

 

[Sparky Ninja]

The fittings will have a spacing mentioned in their data (typically 40-50mm) this should be followed.

 

[telectrix]

any in zone 1? assume you mean 35watt each, not volts. due to the limited space above, i would be inclined to fit cfl or LED so as to eliminate the heat problem. it's not only fire, but overheating of the fittings causing breakdown of cable and terminations to consider

 

[amberleaf]

Widdler . Sir I don’t .what to stand on anybody Toes Here . I was doing research on Downlight.s & Fire Hoods . Amber . May I have Permission to Download Please . it my be Useful to some Member’s . Thank You

 

[colour]

sorry 35watt none in zone 1. could you recomend one that would be a near match to the size of the ip20 and how much it will cost . do they need a tranformer..Thanks

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Widdler . Sir I don’t .what to stand on anybody Toes Here . I was doing research on Downlight.s & Fire Hoods . Amber . May I have Permission to Download Please . it my be Useful to some Member’s . Thank You

....huh?

 

[telectrix]

are the fittings GU10? if so cfl or led lamps fit straight in no tranny. ( as long as you get GU10 base lamps). make sure you get lamps with sufficient output. e.g . if led you need 5watt or more to get a decent light.

 

[amberleaf]

Sorry about that Widdler . I don’t go into the Main Forum a lot . 2 years on my Own . am being Polite thank you

Fire Hood’s . for Down-Light’s

Depends upon the Design & Construction of the Building or the Design of the Downlight.s
Reason (i) it’s possible the Ceiling in which the Downlight.s are mounted is Not a Fire Barrier .
Reason (ii) Some Design’s do not need Fire hood’s because they are Designed to Maintain the Fire Barrier without the need for a Hood . **

Fire hood’s
Some local Authority Insists on Fire Hood’s .
Some Do Not . You need to Contact your Local Authority for Advice .

Firstly . Ceiling’s provide an Important Barrier that helps to prevent the spread of Fire & Noise between the floor’s of a Building . of a Building . Installing Recessed Downlight.s Puncture this Barrier & can Reduce the Effectiveness of this Safety Barrier .

Rating . 30 or 60 or 90 minute Fire Rating .

Regulation’s . Example .
You may be having a new Kitchen Installed . This could mean ???

You may have to meet Part B ( Fire Safety )
You may have to meet Part L ( Energy & Efficiency )
You may have to meet Part P ( Electrical Safety ) of the Building Regulation’s . ( Installation Requirement’s )

Part B ( Fire Safety ) if the Integrity of the ( Fire Barrier i.e. ) a Ceiling . is Compromised by the Installation of a Light Fitting . such as a recessed Downlight . & there is a Living Space on the Floor directly above . the ( Fire must be Maintained )

The can be Achieved by Either using a ( Fire Rated Light Fitting ) which reacts in the Event of a ( Fire Seal the Break in the Fire Barrier ) or by Using a Fire Hood in Conjunction with a Standard Light Fitting . The Fire Hood is Normally placed on the rear of the Fitting in the Cavity Void .

All Electrical Work must conform to BS-7671:2008 . IEE Wiring Regulation’s & Part P of the Building Regulation’s

Bathroom’s are divided into 4 Zone’s ( in Theory ) Zone’s . 0 . 1 . 2 . & Outside . 17th Edition . these must be Protected by RCD operating at 30mA .

Note : When laying Cable’s . always leave an Extra Length for any last minute Adjustment’s . Let face it !! it is Easier to Reduce the Length than it is to Add .
Testing . that is a Other matter .

( Fire : )
Building Regulation’s Approved Document ( B ) states if a Fire Separating Element is to be Effective . then every Joint or Imperfection of Fit . or Opening to Allow Services to pass through the Element . should be Adequately Protected by Sealing or Fire Stopping so that the Fire Résistance of the Element is Not Impaired .

** What Going for it !! Fire Rated Luminaries . can be Inserted into the Ceiling from below Quickly & Easily . just like Standard Downlight.s .

 

[colour]

Thank you telectrix, are you saying that I can fit the IP20 mains unit I have and just insert 5watt bulbs. to aviod excessive heat or buy a whole new unit. The ip20 take GU10 bulbs max 50 watts.

 

[Short Circuit]

Thank you telectrix, are you saying that I can fit the IP20 mains unit I have and just insert 5watt bulbs. to aviod excessive heat or buy a whole new unit. The ip20 take GU10 bulbs max 50 watts.

colour
You can get 230volt LED GU10 lamps that are direct replacement for the 'normal' GU10 lamps - no need to change the lights at all - they will fit straight in - i have been using 4w Kosnic ones, which are bright enough but cost around 12 squid ! So not a cheap option, but safe! Sell them to your customer on the basis of the safety and that they are worth the extra money as they last 10 times longer and use less energy - ie 4w, as opposed to 35!

 

[colour]

Thank you. does this mean that the 15mm gap between the wood floor and light casing is no longer a problem due to heat with the 4w led. also are they dimmable. do they produce any heat to worry about. Thanks

 

[Sparky Ninja]

what happens when the client replaces them for ordinary GU10's?

 

[amberleaf]

Use of Equipment . IP Rating is a Factor .

Any electrical item approved for use in a “ Zone “ may be used in another Zone with a Higher number . but Not in a lower Number .

Zone 0 .
Requires electrical products to Low-Voltage [ max 12 volts ] & be IPX7 … the mechanical protection is unimportant .
Zone 1 .
Requires electrical products to be IPX4 or better . or SELV with the Transformer Located beyond Zone 2 .
Zone 2 .
Requires electrical products to be IPX4 or better . or SELV with the Transformer Located beyond Zone 2 .
Beyond Zone 2 .
When the size of Bathroom extends beyond zone 2 . portable equipment is allowed . however they should be positioned such that their flex does not enable them to be used in zone 2 .

( the Two most IP Rating used IPX2 – IPX4 . in the Regulation’s )

 

[amberleaf]

As well as IP numbers . items may be Classed as PELV – SELV .

- Protective Extra low Voltage : PELV . as the name suggests . the item used Low Voltage but it is ( Connected to Earth )
- Separated Extra Low Voltage : SELV a Low Voltage System but the Output is Isolated from the Input .

Saver Power Points are not IP Rated . but .if they Comply with BS-EN 60742 . Chapter 2 . Section 1 . they can be located in zone 2 . or Beyond Providing they are Unlikely be the subject of Direct Spray from any Shower .

 

[amberleaf]

Bathrooms are Zoned according to Electrical Safety measures . the lighting Zones define what Type of lighting can be in an Area .
According to how Dangerous Lighting could be there ( Zone 1 . is the Area above the Bath ) & it is One of the most Dangerous Lighting Zones .

Purpose . The Zones in a Bathroom are for the purpose of Installing Electrical Equipment . ( The Zones are based on the Risk of Electrical Shock ) & according to a products IP Rating .

 

[amberleaf]

General Electrical Installation Requirements . BS-7671:2008 Lighting .

p/89 - Regulation 510.2 requires Manufactures Instructions to be Taken into Account . it is Important to do this in Order . for Example . to Prevent Luminaires becoming a Source of Ignition ( Any Installation Instructions that are considered to be Inappropriate should be Queried with the Manufactures Concerned & Amended installation Instructions Requested )

p/106 . All terminations & Joints . Whether for Low-Voltage ( LV) or Extra Low Voltage ( ELV ) Circuits should enclosed in Accordance with Regulations 526.5. to Prevent Fire Spread should a Loose Connection Occur

As part of the Initial Verification process . the Electrical Installer has a Duty to Ensure that all the Necessary Fire Precautions have been taken .Irrespective of which Party was Responsible for that Element of the Element of the Electrical Work . Regulation 611.3 ( vii )) p/156

 

[amberleaf]

The First Question that you should be asking yourself for bathrooms Lighting

Depends how high it is ?? . is it higher than 2.25 metres . above the Finished Floor ?? ( Downlighting )
Looking at Lights . then ask yourself are they Zone 1 Compatible
Or Protected by 30mA RCD. 17th Edition

Is there a Shower or Bath . just think about how much Moisture there is in a Bathroom ?

 

[amberleaf]

Both Low-Voltage & Mains Downlights are Dimmable .

● Low-Voltage requires room to Breath ( Air Flow ) above the Ceiling . so may Not be Suitable if Space is Limited . Access is difficult or Insulation is Present . The Heat from an Low-Voltage Lamp is mainly Projected Backward . ( Mains ) mainly Forward .

 

[malcolmsanford]

what happens when the client replaces them for ordinary GU10's?

Just to play the devils advocate here, is that our responsibility.

If the customer decides he wants to use torches to light a room then that is his choice. If as the Electrician we highlight the fact that with the loft being boarded out there is a risk of fire if normal halogen torches were fitted, but he could use a more expensive LED lamp that will give him the same light and be safe.

If he agrees and the LED lamps are fitted and the installation is signed off, what the customer does a few months later when a lamp fails is his choice. He would have known the choice of lamp. If we are thinking change of ownership perhaps a couple of years down the line, again my EIC would high light the choice of lamps that were chosen, and I would hope the EIC would be handed over to the new owner with other documents.

I don't think we can nanny state and be responsible for something a customer decides to do perhaps 2 years after we have installed a safe installation.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I was thinking more along the line of the fittings being fitted without the correct clearance being given around the body. The discussion turned to the direction of lower energy producing less heat, suggesting a non compliance with fitting to the manufacturers data might be acceptable. If the client installs normal GU10's and a fire occurs from a result, the fire inspector will pick out the light and the client will declare the electrician that fitted it.
All said and good we can write down agreements with the clients etc, but we have to act as the competent person here. The regulations clearly won't back us up by giving an 'ordinary person' an instruction on how to avoid disaster. As competent persons we should just remove any likelihood of dangers and most definitely not be installing them.

 

[nickblake]

Fire Rated - LED Downlights these are what you want they are a tad expensive to initially install very little heat warrenty for 7 years so no lamps to replace every 5 minuits and around 60mm from front to back check em out .check this out for infor on down lighters Downlighters can they be a fire hazard? | Electrical Safety Council


Malcome have you ever tried the one on the link above i have never seen a down light pus out so much light , ill see if i can do a mini vid later to day so you can see what i mean

 

[malcolmsanford]

Cheers Nick

I have to be honest and say that I have never been a fan of the downlight. It's not just them though, for me it started with the old flood light track system in the 70's, I just don't think they give the right light for a domestic situation, I suppose you could square it away in a kitchen where you would want a brighter light, but I still think there are better alternatives.

To me the downlighter gives you more cons than pros. Because of the heat they generate, lamps do tend to burn out quicker, the heat affects the lamp holder, making connection to the lamp loose, and cables are often scorched. I do concede that perhaps todays downlighter is better constructed, but as I'm an old dinosaur I would not recommend them still.

I do admit that the introduction of LED type will change my mind concerning the heat affect on them. I will just need to see if the light is less intense and focused. I think the name of the light gives it away "spot", it lights a spot, but if the LED or new lamps give a better spread I would change my mind.

 

[colour]

Thank you everyone, the lights are centre in between the joints at 400 centres, casing of the light Ip20 , is 15mm from above woodchip floor. And a good 4" gap around the light cassing. The ceiling is 2.5, from floor. Are they safe to fit . Or do you advise me to inform client not safe, please let me know best option. To avoid heat Issue, thanks, plain English please..

 

[telectrix]

go the 4watt or 5watt led, gu10 fit. can't go wrong. lamps fit straight in your fittings. job done.

 

[amberleaf]

When you Alter Anything in an Building / Installation you are taking “ Full Reasonability for your Actions “ ◄◄◄

For the Younger Members in the Forum out there . ( everything has it’s Knock on Effect )
110.1. Fundamental Principles: Regulations apply to ( *Design . * Erection & Verification of Electrical Installations .

Thermal Effects on Downlights
p/57 414.1.2. The use of SELV or PELV is considered as a Protective measure in all Situation’s ( Zone 1 ) bathroom -
Note : in Certain Locations the requirements of Part 7 Limit the value of the Extra-Low-Voltage . to a value lower than 50V a.c. or 120V d.c.

After spending a fortune on downlights . Fire rated . or ( Fire hoods are still out there ) will you get away with 50mm / 100mm Insulation all over the Downlights , ? ( Firstly . do we have Air Gaps / Ventilation etc. ) Fundamental Principles . that must not be Overlooked .
As Down lights give of Heat .

● They are fitted only for ! Fire & Acoustic Rated Only ◄ ( Insulation takes us into another Matter )

17th Edition BS-7671:2008 .

Selection & Erection of Equipment : ( this will take us down the road of Design ) Downlights / Wiring ?

Domestic Requirements .
Example :- Installation will conform to the Requirements of the Regulations including Cables concealed in Walls . “ Switches “ Cable’s “

What it Means !
Since Cables are Concealed the standard gives a number of ( measures ) in 522.6.6. which are Designed to protect the User from Inadvertently causing a Fault . ( Protection for Safety 17th Edition BS-7671:2008 . End Results ….. The User .

Solution !
A variety of ( Solutions ) are shown for Cables Concealed in Walls . if the Cable is Mechanically Protected & within the ( Zones ) stated Residual Current Protection is not Required . it may be Required to meet another part of the standard though .

- 522.6.6. (iv) be Mechanically Protected against damage sufficient to prevent penetration of the Cable by Nails . Screws & the like .or.
55222.6.7. ) where Regulation 55.6.6. applies and the Installation is Not intended to be under the Supervision of a Skilled or Instructed person. A Cable installed in accordance with Regulation 522.6.6. (v) and not complying with Regulation 522.6.6. (i) (ii) (iii) or (iv)
( 522.6.6. - The First ( 4 ) is Mechanically Protected ) (i) – (ii) – (iii) –(iv)

● Shall be provided with Additional Protection by means of an RCD having the Characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1. ( ADS )

Fundamental Principles: Protection for Safety :
Part 4 . chapter 41 / 45

Example .
The Electrical system should be Designed & Installed so that “ Live Parts “ shall not be Accessible & Accessible Conductive Parts should not Cause a Hazard to the User .

Various measures can be Employed to Protect the User(s) . Shielding the Live Parts with Enclosures & Insulation are the most Common . ( Additional Protection is normally provided with Residual Current Device ) RCD .

Insulating the whole system & providing Automatic Disconnection of the Supply .
Definitions ,
- Basic Protection – Encloses . Insulation .
- Fault Protection – Disconnection with MCBs .
- Additional Protection RCD where needed . ( Bathrooms )

Your. Requirements start from the Input to the Consumer Unit . ( Am not taking Like / Like )
Consumers Unit . RCBOs .
Split Load – MCBs RCD . Etc .

In Area that can have an Extra risk for Users . 17th Edition . RCD ( ADS ) in any Location which contains a Bath or Shower ( Lighting does fall under This ) Zones 0.1.2. – outside Zone . Protection against Electric Shock . ( 17th Edition / Part P )

● The measure of Automatic Disconnection of supply is employed for a Circuit supplying ( 13A Socket outlets intended for General Use by Ordinary Persons ) Which of the following does Not contribute to the Provision of Fault Protection ? ( Reinforced Insulation ) No

Protection for Safety . Regulation 411.1. ( ii ) lets . strip away the Wording . Yeah
- Protective Earthing . Yes .
- Protective Equipotential Bonding . Yes .
- Automatic Protection by RCD . Yes . ………….. What it said.s on the Tin . Yeah

( Protective Measures ) . we can say – Fault Protection is provided by (i) – (ii)

● The Effectiveness of protective measures should be Considered with regard to ? ( Maintainability )
Regulation 341.1. (ii) lets . strip away the Wording . Yeah . Protective Measures :- for Safety during the Intended Life … ETC

BS-7671:2008. Part 4 – Protection for Safety .
Strip it down . Chapter 41 – Protection for against “ Electric Shock “ “ Zones “

411 Protective Measure / Automatic Disconnection of Supply ( ADS )

● My Own Opinion : I feel that young Apprentices’ in the Forum should have an Insight into matter that will one day they will come across
Am standing by my Principals . this forum is here to Help All Alike . Amber .

 

[amberleaf]

Just making you Aware of this Matter . “ Insulation “ Downlights .

What happens if the Light get Hot at the Back & Insulation is Touching it ? ( Oop . someone has not done there Job Right ) By removing the Insulation where the Light is . Your are removing the Risk .

● With the New all in One Fire Rated Downlighs ( Fire Integrity of the Ceiling ) . firehoods are a thing off the Past getting .
Example . as for 50mm Insulation Cut-Out . its mainly so that the Fitting doesn’t Overheat . Example Halogen Downlight s run Pretty Hot . if they are covered with Insulation they Run even Hotter which can cause the Fitting itself to Warp or Other Nasty Problems . that will Occur .

● Manufacturers . will State the Clearance around your Fire Rated Down Light . ( as a Rule )

 

[thekingiam]

In case anyone in the future went to change lamps for gu10s leave a live cable behind each lamp so if anyone tried to change them it wil give them a jolt