E-mail your local MP?

P

Paul.M

Just an idea to cut out all the cowboys and DIY Dave's out there due to the amount of work that we are not getting.

All the forum members in England and Wales (that part p applies to) send an email to our local mp to ask what they are doing with regards to electrical safety in domestic properties? If we all send an email I hope that one mp may have the balls to address parliament. Let's make a realistic list of things that we would like to happen. Don't forget the money factor, if its cheap and easy for them to do it we have a better chance of it being put in force.

1. Just like gas, a home owner can't alter/add to electrical circuits. Work has to be carried out by an electrician with qualifications of ...blank... or a member of a scheme.

2. DIY stores can no longer sell installation equipment without seeing a scheme membership card.

3. Advertise that work done in the home has to be done by an electrician and are liable for prosecution if they DIY.

4. All homes needs to have a PIR every ten years. (giving people 5 years from now to get their first PIR done). If not done any insurance claim due to electricity will not be paid out.


If we make a point in parliament it may increase our domestic work, increase our income and increase safety in peoples homes. Please add your own and I'll pick out the ones I like and email my local mp and you can do the same.
 
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Personally I think its a bit draconian, if I wasn't an electrician I would think its my bl**dy house I can do what I like thankyou very much.

As much as I hate DIY electrics, it is a free(ish) country, DIY electrics is obviously not a major cause of premature death in the UK. And they should get rid of part P as far as I'm concerned. Insurance should put more pressure on PIR's.
You should need a recent PIR for sale of a house stating what is wrong and what is needed to bring it up to standard.

Sod off with over regulation, I'm a sparks and I can't even supposedly work in my own bathroom without getting some Part P'er (such as the local kitchen fitter) to 'Check' my work.
It is all yet more regulation for poor UK residents and is not the way we should be trying to get work.
 
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somersetsparks said:
if I wasn't an electrician I would think its my bl**dy house I can do what I like thankyou very much.

As much as I hate DIY electrics, it is a free(ish) country, DIY electrics is obviously not a major cause of premature death in the UK.

Sod off with over regulation, I'm a sparks and I can't even supposedly work in my own bathroom without getting some Part P'er (such as the local kitchen fitter) to 'Check' my work.
It is all yet more regulation for poor UK residents and is not the way we should be trying to get work.
Click to expand...


"its my house and I'll do what I like". Fine, go and change your gas fire or boiler. Sorry you can't due to it being dangerous.

"not a major cause of death".15 people died 2009-2010 in domestic homes as per the HSE report and many thousands injured.

"can't do work in my own bathroom". This is something you/I/we could ask our local mp.

"not the way to get work". The next time I quote for a c/u change and the customer says its not cheap. I'll tell them to get the cowboy from the pub to do it but you don't get any cert or grantee that its safe. What have you done all your training for? Just to let all kinds of people take over like they are now! I'm sorry but if this continues like it is there will no longer be a domestic market as the cowboys will take over and the qualified sparks will be sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring.
 
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Sorry, didn't mean to offend paul, I don't work in the domestic market thankfully

Heres what I think should happen - Insuarance should put more pressure on 10 yearly PIRs for homeowners with houses over 25 years old at least.

When you sell a house it should come with a full PIR passed or not.

Personally IMO, they should have never have bought in domestic installers kitchen fitters etc. for anything other then MINOR WORKS.
I know of a Part P qualified sparkish sort who installed a kitchen in a TT property and put no 100ma RCD in, then screwed a unit through the cable he installed the day before, however as the stake reading was 40 ohms, it just ran the meter up and the lady got a slight tingle from the handle. It was only the unusually high bills that found this problem!

15 people killed is not a huge concern to the government, thats not bad considering 60 million population and most of those were probably from portable appliances.

Part P should be scrapped, as its useless.

Don't think we should ban more things for the general population, we all have enough red tape to battle through all the time.
 
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ill quite happily write! because tbh im sick of chasing (for lack of a better word) retards around, who don't no what there doing and think its an easy job!!!
iv worked my nut off over the last 10 years to do everything by the book, (yes i know im still a young-un!) but its really starting to grind on me with all these cowboys around!

Danny
 
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Once again this argument raises its head. Somerset i see where you are coming from, and i agree with a lot of what you say. I think the point Paul is trying to get across is not stopping competent people like yourself working on your own house, but the cheap unqualified labour coming over here doing as they please in anyones house, taking the cash, and disappearing into the sunset with no comeback when it goes pete tong.

like it or not Part P is a building regulation, and as such it is statutory, and so it must be adhered to whether we like it or not. Yes, it is flawed, but that is because there was none or very little consultation with the like of us and you. I think Paul is trying to get the point across that sales of electrical equipment should be restricted to competent electricians such as you and me, part P shouldn't come into it. If you look at my post yesterday "£500 why do i bother" you will see what i mean, and what we are trying to get rid of. No one in this forum to my knowledge would question the likes of yourself for working in your own home. But a bloke who asks a sparky in a car park what he needs to wire up someones bathroom is a big no no.

Cheers.........Howard
 
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This makes me wonder what, if anything, are Niceic, Elesca, Napit et all are doing on OUR behalf.

If Part P collapses their businesses will suffer, so we should lobby our scheme "holders" and MP's.
 
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Somerset I didn't take offence, this is an open forum and you can say what you like and get it off your chest. It wasn't a personal go at me so no need to apologise.

Sir kitbreaker that thread is in the arms due to bad spelling ;). Mods could correct the spelling ;) and move it to here?

If we have a few more vues on here could a mod set up a pole so we could all vote for what things gets on our nerves so then WE ALL CAN SEND AN EMAIL TO OUR LOCAL MP and get the ball rolling? Come on gents this is your time to have your say as an unofficial electricians body (which this forum is) and all of us do a simple task of sending an email to sort out the future of OUR industry. If we don't do it, who will???
 
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Murdoch said:
This makes me wonder what, if anything, are Niceic, Elesca, Napit et all are doing on OUR behalf.

If Part P collapses their businesses will suffer, so we should lobby our scheme "holders" and MP's.
Click to expand...

People ain't got bottle to stand their ground and say enough is enough, no more fees from us. We are the ones doing the productive physical work and your doing nothing but lapping up our money.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who pays their fees then moans after, you have a choice, its a stupid soft law is part p.

Sorry if anyone is offended, but its the truth.
 
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Murdoch said:
Well lets hope that they are reading this and taking note! I bet they would rather not be known as "scam providers"!
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Once their non productive day finishes they don't care what gets written on forums, because action speaks louder than words lol

Makes me laugh when people "say passed my part p assessment with so and so today, he was a real helpful chap etc"

Passing your City & Guilds and becoming and Electrician is an achievement, the above is an insult to an Electricians intelligence.
 
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Fraid I'm in Somersets camp....although I can understand all points of view.
Hands up though....how many of us calling for electrical work to be regulated have changed the brakes on their car/van?.....I'll bet on a mechanics forum right now they are moaning about DIY car servicing.
 
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it amazes me that every year i have to take my car in for an mot to check safety levels to protect myself and the public in the case of a brake failure etc, however tell everyone that they need a pir every ten years and they still think its a swindle and dont bother.i believe that the home insurers need to tell the public that insurance will not be given unless up to date pir is proved. i also believe that seen as the goverment introduced part p as an insentive for less electrical accidents it has an obligation to the public to inform them of the new regulations and the outcome if not adhered to.
 
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To paul - I only looked at what i had written after you had replied and realised it sounded quite Angry, I have been being a bit militant recently at work anyways, not sure why, just fed up of being stamped on by companies and the government.... you know the usual! :-)

Well, I think we need properly qualified sparks, not just domestic installers, everyone should have a well rounded appreciation of electrical work evn if only an appreciation.
Everyone should be able to do conduit, pyro, SWA etc. And everyone should know the theory behind the wiring after all, there is a lot of stuff to get your head round to be a good sparks, i'm learning all the time.
In fact it can sometimes be harder with domestic as you make the decisions where as on big industrial jobs, that is taken about 5 levels above you!

In reply to wirepuller - I'm a DIY Mechanic, DIY Plumber and just about everything else (except plastering - that didnt go to well!). The only thing I think about cars is there is a lot less thinking invloved as you buy correct parts and replace most of the time, where as with wiring you have to buy 'raw materials' and decide howto install yourself!
 
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As I've said Somerset I did not find your post offensive, its your own point of view and adds to this thread so we know what all of us thinks and what we believe should be changed so we can send an email. Please post up your thoughts, that's the truth and that can not be denied.
 
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I would agree insurance is the way forward, like with vehicles - you can't get insurance if you haven't got a valid MOT.
In a way it seems to have worked with PAT testing - insurers require it so companies get someone in to do it, although as we all know the quality of testing varies greatly.
If there were a requirement to have a valid PIR to be able to get home insurance then yes more people would get it done, although not having one shouldn't stop a property changing hands in the same way as you can still buy a car for spares or repair.
... So yes I think MOTs are the model to aspire to, but obviously buildings may be harder to 'police' because you can't stop them while they're driving down the road.
 
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Yep Novussparks I agree, I think a building should have to have one even if it shows major failure unless being sold as a project/wreck.
Then the home buyer knows what they are buying into and what should be done.
However maybe it should be the mortgage provider asking for this?

Insurance companies are definately the way to police things rather than more statutary rules I think.
 
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Murdoch said:
This makes me wonder what, if anything, are Niceic, Elesca, Napit et all are doing on OUR behalf.

If Part P collapses their businesses will suffer, so we should lobby our scheme "holders" and MP's.
Click to expand...

Had interesting chat with someone yesterday, NIC, NAPIT etc are not notifying Building Control about works being completed according to him! Am going to follow this up in next week or so and report back. You talk of scam, if they are not even doing what they are getting paid to do we surely have recourse to claw back some of the money spent!
 
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paul.m said:
2. DIY stores can no longer sell installation equipment without seeing a scheme membership card.
Click to expand...

Paul, you raise some good points and most I agree with except for the above.
What if someone's doing work to become a member of the scheme in the first place and therefore at the time of buying they have no scheme membership?

Maybe it could allow for people with proof of different qualifications such as 17th and 2391 or just 2330...

Otherwise there'd be a catch 22 situation: Can't buy materials to do job because not in part p scheme, but can't join scheme as can't buy materials for the job.

Just a thought :)
 
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I think there should be a tightening up

Part P should be scrapped in favour of a less draconian system

The Scottish Building Standards system may be adopted in Northern Ireland as they have decided Part P is not for them

The Scottish system needs more improvement, but it's far better than part P

You only need a building warrant (permission to do certain work) for jobs that alter the structure, layout or number of usable rooms amongst other things

The council look for a registered electrician (SELECT [ECA of Scotland] or NICIEC) to sign off works, or someone that meets these standards

The system up here has home reports still in place and solicitors pick up on things as the questionnaire for the seller asks them if they have had any work done. If they falsify their answers it may cause problems re breach of contract

I think there should be;
PIR's for landlords as mandatory
PIR's for house sales
a register of compotent electricians
a requirement for landlords to use a compotent person
the insurance industry needs to pick up their end

discuss...
 
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Mr.Si said:
Paul, you raise some good points and most I agree with except for the above.
What if someone's doing work to become a member of the scheme in the first place and therefore at the time of buying they have no scheme membership?

Maybe it could allow for people with proof of different qualifications such as 17th and 2391 or just 2330...

Otherwise there'd be a catch 22 situation: Can't buy materials to do job because not in part p scheme, but can't join scheme as can't buy materials for the job.

Just a thought :)
Click to expand...


I should have worded that better and thank you for correcting me. Yes it should only be possible to buy installation materials with proof that you are an electrician but this pushes us down the road of a national register, this is what I'm asking.

Maybe through jib (which is cheap reg fees) a proper more defined grading that also proves safety with the esc and a membership number. Will this make our industry better or more complex?
 
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there is a register of electricians via the jib /sjib. How many of us check or are checked using this?

Being an electrician does not make you competent. I have seen a fair amount of work (from younger sparks in particular) that leave a lot to be desired
Was at one 3 weeks ago where an 'electrician' carried out remedial works following a PIR we failed. The guy had on site 2 EI141 smoke detectors (not required for PIR but required for letting in Scotland), but fitted a different make with no base / patress
He also had a split 17th edition consumer unit, and fitted one with NO RCD ! (got it off back of lorry and fitted it without question despite me failing PIR for lack of RCD or supp bonding to bathroom)
and he had to do a main bond

The job was that poor that my apprentice (working with me 13 months - starting college in Aug) was listing all this guys defects.
He also pointed out that his --- would be kicked if he left work that bad

It makes things better for the rest of us as it gives us more word of mouth work
 
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NovusSparkus said:
... So yes I think MOTs are the model to aspire to, but obviously buildings may be harder to 'police' because you can't stop them while they're driving down the road.
Click to expand...
i would think it would be easier no pir no house insurance full stop, electric meter reader or even a postman asks to see cert if no then so and so..
 
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it seems to me the government response to unsafe dwelings is to try to police qualified electricians instead of trying to police or change the public atitude towards domestic electrics and punish the wrong doers out there.
 
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I think the subject of DIY sheds flogging Gas Fitting stuff to Joe Public was addressed a while ago.

The reply from the sheds was something like: "Have you any idea how big the DIY market is? Have you any idea what our profits are from selling this stuff? Have you any idea how much tax we pay into your coffers? Now go away & think again!!"

And that, as they say, was the end of that!!
 
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