EICR- Are Rcd's necessary ?

H

Hamez

Hi all,

I have been asked to carry out repair works in a house which has had a condition report completed by another electrician.

One of the main problems they have outline is that the "entire property is not protected by RCD's - C2"
The D.B is an old wylex board with rewirable fuse's so adding in RCD protection isn't that straight forward.

If the the Installation comply's with the regs at the time of it being installed do I need to add in RCD's?

Many Thanks!
 
Hi,
 I have a read over it and on page 3 it states this

"It should be borne in mind that, as stated in theintroducon to BS 7671, exisng installaons thathave been constructed in accordance with earlieredions of the Standard may not comply with thecurrent edion in every respect, but this does notnecessarily mean that they are unsafe for connueduse or require upgrading. "

Do I then just put in the observations part of the forum " no RCD protection - C3" ?

Thanks


 
In the model forms section of 7671 you will find a page giving guidance to the person carrying out the report.
If you read that guidance you will find that it guides you on how to code a lack of RCDs
 
Its a bit of a sweeping statement that the whole property in not protected by an rcd it should be broke down , for example no rcd protection for cables buried less than 50mm in walls code 3 . No rcd protection for circuits within a bath or shower room code 3 , no rcd protection for sockets for general use code 3, and no rcd protection for sockets that could be used to supply portable equipment outside code 2
 
There is no requirement in the current regulations for sockets which could be used to supply portable equipment outdoors to be provided with RCD protection.
 
That would only apply if there is unprotected mobile equipment in use connected to a socket.
Even in such a situation, the observation should not refer to the lack of RCD protection for the socket, but rather to the lack of RCD protection for the mobile equipment.
 
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Yes so if you have a ground floor socket next to the back door and the house as a lawn and there is an electric mower in tne garage then i would take a pont that that socket may be used to supply equipment outside , my post was just an example to point out that you can not just put no rcd protection as a one liners on eicr all propertys are different and need coding accordingly :)
 
The socket may well be used for the mower.
However the mower may have an RCD plug, or may be used with a plug in RCD adapter.
The socket (unless it is intended for a specific item of equipment) fails to comply with current Regulations, as it has no RCD protection. To then make a further observation based on the fact that it fails to comply with something that is no longer a requirement of the Regulations, would mean that you are not conducting the inspection, in accordance with the requirements of BS7671.

If it is the case, that at the time of design/construction of the installation, the requirement to provide RCD protection for socket-outlets which could reasonably be expected to supply portable equipment outdoors was in force, then you have an installation which has never complied with the requirements of BS7671.
As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.
This would mean that a code C2 would be applicable for all general use sockets, cables concealed in walls, circuits of locations containing baths or showers, etc.
 
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spinlondon said:
As such the requirement which allows for installations which complied at the time of their design/construction to not be deemed unsafe does not apply.
Click to expand...

There is no requirement that an installation which complied when it was designed & constructed is not deemed unsafe.

An installation which was installed to a previous Edition MAY NOT NECESSARILY be unsafe (ergo, it also may be unsafe). Nowhere in BS 7671 is there a requirement that you consider it to be automatically safe.

Although I do agree that you cannot have an Observation that a socket outlet used to provide equipment outdoors as no such requirement has existed since the 16th Edition was superceded.
 
Hamez said:
Hi,
 I have a read over it and on page 3 it states this

"It should be borne in mind that, as stated in theintroducon to BS 7671, exisng installaons thathave been constructed in accordance with earlieredions of the Standard may not comply with thecurrent edion in every respect, but this does notnecessarily mean that they are unsafe for connueduse or require upgrading. "

Do I then just put in the observations part of the forum " no RCD protection - C3" ?

Thanks
Click to expand...
No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective. You may wish to recommend to the customer that it would be in their benefit to upgrade the fusebox, but the previous C2 in the EICR is incorrect and so would a C3 be.
 
sparksburnout said:
No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective. You may wish to recommend to the customer that it would be in their benefit to upgrade the fusebox, but the previous C2 in the EICR is incorrect and so would a C3 be.
Click to expand...

How can a C3 be incorrect when it is written in bs7671 that a minimum of C3 should be given?
031bbc04f7fec4d671e44c2b660fe4b4.jpg
 
sparksburnout said:
Fair point, so if it was a socket liable to supply outdoor equipment, would you give it a C2? How would you define that?
Click to expand...

In typical IET fashion it was a bit more specific in the green book, but now they have made it less clear in this book! It used to state that bathrooms without supplementary bonding or RCDs are a C2 and that sockets externally or to be used externally are also C2 (if memory serves correctly)
All other sockets requiring RCD but not provided with it were C3.
 
davesparks said:
In typical IET fashion it was a bit more specific in the green book, but now they have made it less clear in this book! It used to state that bathrooms without supplementary bonding or RCDs are a C2 and that sockets externally or to be used externally are also C2 (if memory serves correctly)
All other sockets requiring RCD but not provided with it were C3.
Click to expand...
Bit open to interpretation this "likely to be used externally"! Could be any socket downstairs near a window......
 
sparksburnout said:
No, you read the text of the above and do not give it a code of any description, the regulations are not retrospective.
Click to expand...

Aside from the fact that any lack of RCD protection must at a minimum be given a C3 observation, it is not true that something which complied at the time of installation cannot have an observation. It must be if safety is a concern - the old Regulations are not relevant to the inspection being carried out to the current Edition.
 
It is clearly a safety concern if a socket which might reasonably be expected to supply mobile equipment outdoors has no RCD provision. Regardless of current wording of the regulations that is a code 2.
 
I think if you understand the dangers of using portable equipment outdoors you would give a code 2 observation for sockets liable to be used outdoor regardless of what tbe regs says and you can not rely on the fact that a rcd adapter would be used in a domestic environment
 
I agree with wirepuller. Sockets used for supplying portable equipment outdoors should have RCD protection, if they do not then I would code it a C2 (and I consider myself fairly 'forgiving' on the coding side).

However, do we just use our judgement if we think a socket will be used for supplying portable equipment outdoors? Do we ask the homeowner? Do we have a sneaky look in the garage to see if there is an electric strimmer or lawnmower?

I don't think we can assume someone will always use an 'RCD plug in socket' everytime they plug in the lawnmower. So if we assume that most people will at some point use electricity outside that means they are going to use one of the sockets that does not have RCD protection. So I suppose, no RCD protection on any ground floor sockets should be a code C2 (yet I've only ever given it a C3)!!

I'll have to have a think about this now!
 
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Hamez said:
I have been asked to carry out repair works in a house which has had a condition report completed by another electrician.
Click to expand...


It would depend on the minor works being completed. I would say at best it would be recommended to install an rcd for safety and to comply the repair works with the bs7671 latest edition so that you are able to issue a minor or eic cert as an qualified registered electrician.
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your help!
The property is on the first and second floor and there is no sockets that could be used to supply i.e. a lawn mower.

I will just code it as a c3 and recommend it to be upgraded.

I have read the best practice guide but do any of you know of any books worth reading on EICR's?


Thanks
 
The property is to be letted and it needs to have an EICR that ensures that the property is safe.
So I will be completing a new form once I have corrected any other issues :).
 
What a state of affairs.
EICR carried out, remedial work needed, next electrician disagrees, new EICR done, customer charged twice, electricians as a whole devalued in the mind of the customer.
 
The client needs to have an EICR to prove that the property is of a good enough standard so someone is going to have to fill one out. What would you do in this situation ?
 
Hamez said:
The client needs to have an EICR to prove that the property is of a good enough standard so someone is going to have to fill one out. What would you do in this situation ?
Click to expand...

Issue a MWC or EIC as appropriate for any remedial work and tell the customer to contact the original inspector and see how he feels about your opinions and reissuing the EICR. I would provide reference to the regs and the best practice guide to support this.
If he is unwilling to change the EICR and the customer is happy to pay, then of course I would carry out another EICR.

I was just pointing out that looking from the customer's perspective, it all looks a right rigmarole.
 
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Hamez said:
The client needs to have an EICR to prove that the property is of a good enough standard so someone is going to have to fill one out. What would you do in this situation ?
Click to expand...

I think this is a classic grey area BUT if the client is happy to pay for a 2nd EICR, to get the "clean" ticket, then that is up to them.........
 
Ok thanks for that, The previous electrician did not fully complete the EICR - Didn't do any of the testing.
So an entirely new form will need to be filled out. The customer is happy for me to do this but I see your point though!


Cheers
 
Hamez said:
Ok thanks for that, The previous electrician did not fully complete the EICR - Didn't do any of the testing.
So an entirely new form will need to be filled out. The customer is happy for me to do this but I see your point though!

Cheers
Click to expand...

In that case I would be urging the customer to get a full refund from the original inspector as the first EICR is useless.
 
Surely certificates (EIC or MEIWC) for the remedial works which were required is all that is needed. An EICR should not be altered to state Satisfactory.

The EIC/MEIWC proves that the unsatisfactory conditions have been corrected!
 
Hamez said:
The client needs to have an EICR to prove that the property is of a good enough standard so someone is going to have to fill one out. What would you do in this situation ?
Click to expand...

The client already has an EICR which has identified the issues which need repair.
You should now carry out those repairs and then issue the appropriate EIC or MWC to certify the work.

I'm getting the impression that you're trying to complete an EICR with C3 coding on items to give the client what they want rather than doing the job properly.
 
The client does not currently have a complete EICR. A new one will need to be done. I am going to advise them about adding RCD protection but as its not essential it is totally up to them whether they want to spend the money and upgrade.
 
Hamez said:
The client does not currently have a complete EICR. A new one will need to be done. I am going to advise them about adding RCD protection but as its not essential it is totally up to them whether they want to spend the money and upgrade.
Click to expand...


So carry out a full EICR and make the observations and recommendations as appropriate. But I doubt that you'll be able to give it a clean bill of health of the installation is old enough to have bs3036 ocpds as it will be unlikely to have RCD protection or correct supplementary bonding in the bathrooms
It is totally up to them what they do regardless of what the code is, even a C1 only gets fixed if the customer wants to do it.
 
If no testing was carried out on this supposed EICR then it is not really an EICR in my view. Were Zs tests carried out?? If someone presented a EICR to me with little to nil test results I would take the observations page with a piece of salt, and recommend a proper thorough EICR was carried out. Which to be fair you are recommending.

Any remedial works I carry out to an EICR are normally covered by relevant certs and a cover letter stating items x x and x have been remedied and going on to say apend this page and certs to the original EICR as a future record that works have been carried out....Blah blah etc etc...
 
I was under the impression that the EICR is only valid with a full schedule of test results attached. Otherwise its just expensive bog roll.
 

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EICR- Are Rcd's necessary ?
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