EICR coding twin and earth tails/riser

[South Spark]

Not unusual in townhouses that have been converted into flats round here to see all the meters in the basement, each feeding a switched fuse spur that then feeds 16mm T+E to each flat. Obviously that's a run of tens of metres, concealed in walls etc with no RCD protection.

Guessing it was correct to some edition of the regs, code to C3?

 

[telectrix]

if there is a perceived danger of nails or screws being stuck in the walls and hence into the cable, it's a C2 in my book.

 

[snowhead]

If you see the first one whilst you're there, C.2
If you see the second, just laugh and walk away, no risk there.

 

[partplonker]

I guess you can't know the cable routes and depth, but 522.6.202 only applies if they're buried less than 50mm from the surface doesn't it? The 3m rule only applies to tails from DNO equipment I think (434.2.1), which your switched fused spur isn't.

 

[Flanders]

Code 3 for cables buried less than 50mm in the wall . But if was design to the 17th addition or newer then I would and have given this observation a code 2

 

[Ian1981]

Code 3 for cables buried less than 50mm in the wall . But if was design to the 17th addition or newer then I would and have given this observation a code 2

What difference does the edition it was designed to have?

 

[South Spark]

What difference does the edition it was designed to have?

The perpetual question surely? Can we say everything not up to 18th is UNSATISFACTORY ?

 

[partplonker]

it's a good question - do you code to current regs, or the regs at the time of installation?

I'm sure many things were considered compliant at the time they were installed, but would not be under current regs (eg: plastic CUs, sockets and lighting circuits without 30mA RCD protection, etc).

 

[suffolkspark]

I'd always been told to code it C3, but the napit guide actually says C2, although its riddled with errors

 

[pc1966]

The perpetual question surely? Can we say everything not up to 18th is UNSATISFACTORY ?

It should come down to the level of danger it presents, not what edition it was/was not allowed under.

The reality is many things that are now mandated by the 18th are not significant risk normally so should be C3, but there will be cases when you see stuff that is plain stupid and a risk even if it is not specifically mentioned in the regs (though over the years they seem to grow and grow as 'stupid' is found).

So a non-RCD cable run up some entrance hall that is unlikely to ever have shelves or pictures nailed up is possibly a C2, but same cable in a kitchen/bathroom where DIY shelving is very likely (or outdoors, etc) should be a C2.

In my book at least, not that anyone reads it...

 

[pc1966]

I'd always been told to code it C3, but the napit guide actually says C2, although its riddled with errors

NAPIT seems to code everything C2 for some reason...no vested interests there...

BPG4 seems fairly sane advice & examples in comparison.

 

[telectrix]

it's so simple. you code to current regs. the codes are simple.. C3 for recommended improvement/not to current regs., but no immediate or potential danger. if either danger exists it's C1 or C2. clear as mud day

 

[DPG]

You can't code based on the regs that were in place when you think the installation may or may not have been designed. How would you know anyway?

 

[partplonker]

Unfortunately, there's a large discretionary element to EICRs.

I look after a very large installation that's been maintained and extended since the 1950s. Even though I'm experienced, qualified and capable of doing the testing myself, because I'm not a CPS member I was at the mercy of and ended up negotiating with the electrician we hired to do the last EICR.

I'll give one example (from many). The kitchen was renovated in 1981 under god-knows-what edition. It's all surface-mount electrics with singles in PVC conduit. The kitchen itself is barely used and has a kettle, a microwave and a few fridge freezers. No-one plugs anything in in there and it's lightly used.

The electrician doing the EICR wouldn't deem that kitchen satisfactory unless every socket outlet was replaced with one that was 30mA RCD enabled (despite every socket meeting the Zs requirement for 0.4s disconnection and then some). He also coded everything C3 quoting the 50mm buried reg 522.6.202 despite the fact that none of the cables are buried! The kitchen sockets are also never used to power outdoor or mobile equipment. I basically had to replace 15 socket outlets with RCD enabled ones to get a satisfactory EICR for that room and hiring someone else to start again on the installation would have been prohibitively expensive (we'd already paid 2 grand for the condition report to this point).

He only agreed to replacing outlets as a compromise after I used BPG4 to argue my case - before that, he was insisting on unnecessarily replacing the 1970s 3 phase board that served that room (that tested completely fine and only served surface mounted electrics in that room and another room) with something new at a cost of 3 grand.

This is one example from many and I'm not saying that the electrician himself was a bad person or doing something wrong, what I'm saying is that BS7671 is not clear enough on how EICR codes are applied. Instead, there's conflicting advice from NICEIC, NAPIT and ESF and electricians are put on the spot and told to use their initiative.

I think something like ESF BPG4 should be incorporated into the regs section 6 to stop future arguments over condition report codings. I know they can't cover every eventuality, but there's a shitload of basic, standard stuff that everyone sees that they could cover.

Sorry, rambling on.

 

[loz2754]

It should come down to the level of danger it presents, not what edition it was/was not allowed under.

The reality is many things that are now mandated by the 18th are not significant risk normally so should be C3, but there will be cases when you see stuff that is plain stupid and a risk even if it is not specifically mentioned in the regs (though over the years they seem to grow and grow as 'stupid' is found).

So a non-RCD cable run up some entrance hall that is unlikely to ever have shelves or pictures nailed up is possibly a C2, but same cable in a kitchen/bathroom where DIY shelving is very likely (or outdoors, etc) should be a C2.

In my book at least, not that anyone reads it...

I totally agree with @pc1966 on this.
As I have said in several threads on the subject of EICR coding, the Best Practice Guide, Napit Codebreakers and such, are just that. Guides.
The inspector is the one signing the report, and he is the one responsible for making the judgement as to the potential for danger, and what code should be given. Having said that, the guides are very useful in assisting one to make that judgement. As is this excellent forum.