EICR ... Customer obliged legally?

mikeyb1000 · Sep 6, 2013

If an ECIR given to a customer comes up as unsatisfactory. Are they legally obliged to make the necessary upgrades?

telectrix · Sep 6, 2013

nope...but they have a duty of care to anyone living in or visiting the premises, and if it's dangerous then they could be prosecuted.

Guest55 · Sep 6, 2013

there is absolutely nothing with regards to domestic electrical installations that is legally enforcable.

so you'll have to look elsewhere to screw over a customer following a pir :-D

SirKit Breaker · Sep 6, 2013

mikeyb1000 said:
If an ECIR given to a customer comes up as unsatisfactory. Are they legally obliged to make the necessary upgrades?

As Tel and Biff, they are not obliged to do anything, but what do you mean by upgrades? Is it a C1 or C2 defect you want them to have sorted out, or are you just advising C3 for something like no RCD's for Additional Protection? If the only reason that it is "Unsatisfactory" is because it doesn't comply with current standards, then is is not Unsatisfactory.

Cheers..............Howard

oldtimer · Sep 6, 2013

Don't get caught up in the Traffic Warden syndrome ie you have the qualifications the Schemie badge on your polo shirt an MFT and a pen and a notepad so now you can start issuing tickets (C1 & C2) cos life is not fair.

So be careful because you could be misleading the customer and if they get a second opinion they could take legal proceedings against you for deception if you get work out of the EICR that was not required.

SirKit Breaker · Sep 6, 2013

Well said Oldtimer.

Octopus · Sep 6, 2013

mikeyb1000 said:
If an ECIR given to a customer comes up as unsatisfactory. Are they legally obliged to make the necessary upgrades?

Why do you ask?

ian.settle1 · Sep 6, 2013

Murdoch said:
Why do you ask?

Probably wants to be like British Gas and make the poor customer panic thinking they have to have it done.

nickblake · Sep 7, 2013

Yes Ian saw one just the other day , installation has no cpc on the lighting circuit , spark had labelled the board advising no cpc etc etc BG came in danger notification and little triangular stickers with do not use possible dangerous condition ,makes my blood boil , sorry ranting again , what the problem is with EICR is peoples mis understanding of the Coding since the changes its easier it tells you C1 dangerous condition C2 potentially dangerous C3 requires improvement , the amount of C1's I have seen for no RCD is silly no no no, No RCD's is a C3 requires improvement , how can not having an RCD be potentially dangerous , potentially dangerous is for example a shower wired in 1.5mm TWE .the other thing is the lack of policing ,the good honest person having an EICR will get the improvements done ,those that don't are playing Russian roulette , because if some one dies then its prosecution , handy guide is available from ESC landlords guide to electricity

tom79bmth · Sep 7, 2013

I was always told you couldn't leave a c1 or is that a NICEIC thing ?

oldtimer · Sep 7, 2013

tom79bmth said:
I was always told you couldn't leave a c1 or is that a NICEIC thing ?

Well you can if the customer does not want it fixed for me common sense kick in so you can try and make it safer

kingeri · Sep 7, 2013

tom79bmth said:
I was always told you couldn't leave a c1 or is that a NICEIC thing ?

So what would the NIC have you do, hold a gun to their heads and force them to have the work done?

Octopus · Sep 7, 2013

tom79bmth said:
I was always told you couldn't leave a c1 or is that a NICEIC thing ?

Hum... a very interesting question..... where morally you should try and fix it.... as for your shoudn't leave it, what des the ESC leaflet say as I can't remember (and I've not had many C1's to deal with)

SensesFailYou · Sep 7, 2013

If it was a C1 I would just advise the customer strongly recommending it be done, and say it was a live cable sticking out of a wall for all to touch I'd just do it.

One thing that gets me is: I went to an installation in a commercial property that had been inspected by BG and I was going to rectify the bits and bobs detailed within reason as some were just silly! And they detailed things such as, a missing blank in the consumer unit a missing blank on one or 2 old entry holes in the consumer unit etc... Why wouldn't you just do it? It takes more time writing it on the report and costs more in ink than it does just popping one in! I may be too nice but me personally I'd just do it! For one its safer for the client, 2; the client may think yer that was good of him etc.

rant over!

oldtimer · Sep 7, 2013

I found no earth at a light switch took it off and found it broken off at the earth terminal reconnected it so no C1 just fixed as I did the job

SirKit Breaker · Sep 7, 2013

tom79bmth said:
I was always told you couldn't leave a c1 or is that a NICEIC thing ?

We are going back to Electricians wanting to repair the world for free.

You are there to Inspect and test, and produce an Electrical Installation Condition Report. On the report there is a field to complete regarding findings, fill it in, advise your Client of imminent dangers etc, and advise them to have it fixed, if they dont/can't/won't, then get in your van and sail off into the sunset, and sleep soundly, you have done everything that you need to do.

If the NIC wont let you leave a C1, then send them the bill for fixing it if the client wont pay, i know what they will tell you to do.

When you put your van in for the MOT or service, does the garage fix your dangerous brakes free of charge? No i didn't think so.

Cheers...........Howard

oldtimer · Sep 7, 2013

Careful Howard I used a car analogy in the EICR for a hotel post and got jumped on admittedly from the low posters. lol

nickblake · Sep 7, 2013

If you have a C1 you are not obliged to correct it as you are doing an EICR , you then issue a danger notification , and make it as safe as you can ie live wire sticking out if a wall you tape them up , as long as you have advised them issued a DN its up to them ,

Edd · Sep 7, 2013

In our game Most C1's are easy fixable and wont break the bank, a hole in CU, broken accessory etc, live cable somewhere. Sorry all you people that say leave it have no morals..
If theres kids in the house spend 10 minuits of your time and make it safe, be a kind and careing electrician its not all about making money. The Fuk it wright a letter to the cliant explaining the dangers of the broken socket next to the play mat atitude really sucks.. I cant really think of many C1's that will take more than a few minuits to fix.... C2 yes but C1 hmmm im trying...

Edit, im sure it would take longer to wright up a danger notification regarding a live cable sticking out the wall, than sort it out. Im sure you priced a little bit of lee way into that test..

Edit 2, a broken twin socket, costs less than £2 materials and takes about 2 minuits to change.... typing up letter well at my wrighting speed a lot longer!!!!

Edit 3, Sry Had a beer, its saturday.. Im allowed.. will read this tomorrow thinking,, crap what did i say

oldtimer · Sep 7, 2013

common sense should kick in but as said the traffic warden mentality can kick in ie sorry mate its not me but the job says we are towing your car away. Said this before but it is getting more common with guys doing I&T thinking they have the power of God over people thing is what they are not getting is that it can backfire on them ie sorry have to fail you as you have no RCD protection

telectrix · Sep 7, 2013

SirKit Breaker said:
We are going back to Electricians wanting to repair the world for free.

You are there to Inspect and test, and produce an Electrical Installation Condition Report. On the report there is a field to complete regarding findings, fill it in, advise your Client of imminent dangers etc, and advise them to have it fixed, if they dont/can't/won't, then get in your van and sail off into the sunset, and sleep soundly, you have done everything that you need to do.

If the NIC wont let you leave a C1, then send them the bill for fixing it if the client wont pay, i know what they will tell you to do.

When you put your van in for the MOT or service, does the garage fix your dangerous brakes free of charge? No i didn't think so.

Cheers...........Howard

agree with what you say, howard, but as the car analogy goes, my MOT place would replace a faulty bulb (lamp for the pedantic sods) FOC and not fail it. more serious faults, however, you're right.

SirKit Breaker · Sep 7, 2013

Read posts above as well, yes minor easy fix C1, a bit of tape here a bit of mastic there, this is called common sense. If he cant think of many C1's that cant be fixed in a minute or so...well, i can think of plenty that can be fixed without further investigation, but i can also think of a lot more that will.

Anyway i am not here to Argue, just stating a fact and offering my opinions rightly or wrongly.

Cheers...............Howard

Jay Sparks · Sep 7, 2013

Murdoch said:
Hum... a very interesting question..... where morally you should try and fix it.... as for your shoudn't leave it, what des the ESC leaflet say as I can't remember (and I've not had many C1's to deal with)

Its a strange one this because I was always told to stop the EICR if I came across a C1. I was told to inform the customer of the immediate danger and if they refuse to let you sort it there and then, just walk away! Now Im not saying this is the right way to do it and I cant remember who told me (college or mentor) but if your a few hours into the EICR, would you really gonna walk away, without pay, if the customer says no?? I suppose you have to do what you think is right with in any given situation.
Its probably one of them urban myths again, a bit like the one about Leeds utd being a football team!!!lol

p.s, This isnt directed at you Murdoch, just following on from your post.

Guest55 · Sep 7, 2013

it makes me smile how some sparks like to take on the role of guardians and protectors of the free world , upholding moral principles like a comic book superhero , cape rustling in the wind as they dash to their next pir as though millions of lives are at stake......

well this isnt the fookin united nations , so if joe bloggs values the electrical safety of his property then he can pay for the privilage of having his C1's & 2's fixed like any other business or service rather than relying on the guilt trip of the inspector to patch up their crappy installation as he goes along.

some of you need a reality check to be quite honest.

oldtimer · Sep 7, 2013

Biff I like your style and would add we aint the electrical police that reads the customers his or her rights before we do an EICR

A reality check indeed

sparkdog · Sep 7, 2013

Had a C2 the other day that had to be left as it was.Low insulation reading,below 2Meg on just one lighting circuit but not tripping the RCD.Its done in Pyro buried in the walls going up to the floor above but couldn't be fixed without major upheaval.

ExArmy · Sep 7, 2013

if it can be fixed in 5 minutes i'd do it. if not, disconnect the circuit and tell the customer.
if something needs sorted and it's minor, i just do it and put it on the bill, none of my customers have ever complained when you tell them you've fixed a problem and charged them a fiver for it.
and almost every EICR i do needs something done to it, and they always seem to pay me for coming back and fixing it cos what good is an unsatisfactory cert!?

Guest55 · Sep 8, 2013

ExArmy said:
if it can be fixed in 5 minutes i'd do it.

fair enough , a reasonable approach.

if not, disconnect the circuit and tell the customer.

whoa , steady on , where did you get the authority to do that ? thought about the consequences and distruption that may cause ? no heating , lighting ,cooking or washing facilities for families with young children are just a few.

if something needs sorted and it's minor, i just do it and put it on the bill, none of my customers have ever complained when you tell them you've fixed a problem and charged them a fiver for it.

nothing wrong with that if the customer is happy.

what good is an unsatisfactory cert!?

youre completely missing the point of an inspection , which is to assess the suitability of continued service. its not some college exam where anything but a pass is a waste of time , even a failed inspection has served its purpose in making its user aware of any defects.

hmm , seems to me many carrying out pir's are blissfully unaware of the actual underlying concepts of inspection & testing.

MDJ · Sep 8, 2013

ExArmy said:
if not, disconnect the circuit and tell the customer.?

that would be asking for trouble, I would sue you if you did that in my house lol, come on now think about it fella

tom79bmth · Sep 8, 2013

I knew I had read it somewhere, comes under health and safety act page 6 of the link, well you don't have to fix it but make safe so either isolation or repair. Thanks murdoch you reminded me

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

SensesFailYou · Sep 8, 2013

tom79bmth said:
I knew I had read it somewhere, comes under health and safety act page 6 of the link, well you don't have to fix it but make safe so either isolation or repair. Thanks murdoch you reminded me

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

good little guide that! Worth a read

Rampantchilli · Sep 10, 2013

It uses the word endeavour, which means try, so not ' you must repair/make safe' just try to make safe, also it does make it conditional on the agreement of the user or owner, I'm pretty sure the ESC are in the real world and would expect a cost to be applied for works done, so if the owner/user won't pay, then you've every right to leave it.