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Platinum lad

Hi all need some advice when filling out test results on eicr's after carrying out live zs tests do you leave out R1 R2 column as in a lot of cases the measured reading is below ze value do you just make a note that it is a measurement and not a calculation?
any help appreciated
 
But how can you work out r1r2 from zs when it's not a true reading regarding service earths? If measured was below the ze what would you suggest? Thanx for response btw
 
whats the issue here...?
if you cant do cross connetions at the board (over congested)...then cross connect at a socket outlet....
or as has been said....limitation...
 
Hey guys I hear what your saying but I know guys who carry out live zs tests and work out r1r2 from measured ze now I was always told zs - ze does not equate to r1r2
 
Well they're as deluded as the man at Megger that decided you can work it out as well and put this interesting feature on a meter (17 series, released fully tested)
 
The equation your looking for is Zs = Ze + (R1 + R2). You can not transpose this to work out (R1 + R2). i.e, you cant deduct the measured Ze from the measured Zs to get an (R1 + R2) measurement!!
 
well well well....
never ceases to amaze does it..
so some out there who are evidently teaching..in some form or another are putin it about that R1 R2 can be acheved by deducting a Ze from Zs....lol...
and i`v heard this before...
 
well well well....
never ceases to amaze does it..
so some out there who are evidently teaching..in some form or another are putin it about that R1 R2 can be acheved by deducting a Ze from Zs....lol...
and i`v heard this before...

I was taught to do this!! Except on TT!
Just to be clear I do not do this now!
 
whats the issue here...?
if you cant do cross connetions at the board (over congested)...then cross connect at a socket outlet....
or as has been said....limitation...

only need to do end to end for EICR dont need to do cross link connections as the installation has power and polarity can be checked when doing ZS.
 
And in fact, maybe even less than that; ultimately what is to be done is defined upfront, if it is just to do IR tests on one circuit and a Ze, then that is what will be done!! The rest isn't part of the agreement.
 
I was testing as a 2nd year apprentice, so it had barely been covered at college. My 'mentor' taught me to do it like that. But...what do u expect, company of at least 20 qualified electricians and maybe 2 had 2391, but hey as long as boss sat behind a desk co-signed it!!
Umm, it must have been college that taught me right, never would have passed exams otherwise. And since things have been in my own name I don't like to cut corners.
 
I was testing as a 2nd year apprentice, so it had barely been covered at college. My 'mentor' taught me to do it like that. But...what do u expect, company of at least 20 qualified electricians and maybe 2 had 2391, but hey as long as boss sat behind a desk co-signed it!!
Umm, it must have been college that taught me right, never would have passed exams otherwise. And since things have been in my own name I don't like to cut corners.
caus theres some about...that just copy old values down...or make em up....
 
NOT THAT I'M SUGGESTING TO DO THIS......

If you dead test R1R2 on one circuit, then perform a proper Ze test, you know that Zs=Ze+(R1R2). So, the difference between the calculated value and the measured value for a Zs on that same circuit is going to reflect the parallel paths etc. If we call that 'P', then you do get a rough-enough value for R1R2 from Zs-Ze-P.

But you dead test a true R1R2, then get a circuit Zs, and whatever the measured value is is the one that goes in the box.
 
OMG , amazing what's going on , I suppose it's to do with the deskilling that's been eating away at the skills of the job , I suppose in time we will just use a martindale socket tester and forget the readings !!

- - - Updated - - -

OMG , amazing what's going on , I suppose it's to do with the deskilling that's been eating away at the skills of the job , I suppose in time we will just use a martindale socket tester and forget the readings !!

- - - Updated - - -

OMG , amazing what's going on , I suppose it's to do with the deskilling that's been eating away at the skills of the job , I suppose in time we will just use a martindale socket tester and forget the readings !!
 
If you want to TEST to find out if a circuit is safe then you HAVE to go through the tests one by one.
If you just want figures to put on a form to get paid then there are all sorts of ways to cut corners but YOUR name on the form and as a professional it could be a criminal charge if anyone gets heurt or worse.

Zs is a live test to CONFIRM the previous DEAD tests, it should be done on the point tested with the highest R1+R2 figure, it assumes you've actually tested at each connection like it says in the book and if you tabulated those readings then you get a good picture (electrically) of the circuit, bridges in rings etc.
Never have understood why there are no official forms to record your circuit testing results instead of just one on the summary as that just leads to fudging to get done quick as it doesn't ask where exactly on the circuit that reading was taken as it's a summary, not specific. A Ze then a Zs on each circuit, turn off main switch, short the neutral & live bus bars to get an insulation resistance of over 1M ohm and out the door to get breakfast.

Rings are relatively easy to test, radials like light circuits get hard as EVERY switch has to come off to get to the CPC to check continuity unless it's an intermediate but you often can't tell that until the plate is off anyway.
Depends on what type of person you are, not give a stuff if someone gets hurt because you cut corners or someone who takes a pride in their work. Sadly I'd not want to put my name to much work I've had to test and yes I do test my own thoroughly so I pick up my own mistakes.

Get a copy of GN3 Inspection and Testing from the IET. Explains it all better than any third party books.
 
If you want to TEST to find out if a circuit is safe then you HAVE to go through the tests one by one.
If you just want figures to put on a form to get paid then there are all sorts of ways to cut corners but YOUR name on the form and as a professional it could be a criminal charge if anyone gets heurt or worse.

Zs is a live test to CONFIRM the previous DEAD tests, it should be done on the point tested with the highest R1+R2 figure, it assumes you've actually tested at each connection like it says in the book and if you tabulated those readings then you get a good picture (electrically) of the circuit, bridges in rings etc.
Never have understood why there are no official forms to record your circuit testing results instead of just one on the summary as that just leads to fudging to get done quick as it doesn't ask where exactly on the circuit that reading was taken as it's a summary, not specific. A Ze then a Zs on each circuit, turn off main switch, short the neutral & live bus bars to get an insulation resistance of over 1M ohm and out the door to get breakfast.

Rings are relatively easy to test, radials like light circuits get hard as EVERY switch has to come off to get to the CPC to check continuity unless it's an intermediate but you often can't tell that until the plate is off anyway.
Depends on what type of person you are, not give a stuff if someone gets hurt because you cut corners or someone who takes a pride in their work. Sadly I'd not want to put my name to much work I've had to test and yes I do test my own thoroughly so I pick up my own mistakes.

Get a copy of GN3 Inspection and Testing from the IET. Explains it all better than any third party books.
no it dont....
wander lead and a lightmate....
one test lead into the lightmate...which goes into the BC/edison fiting....the other test lead with prod onto the head of the 3.5mm screw fixing the switchfront....
unless of course its a plasterboard box...or a knockout box utilising plastic lugs...
 
Dear Sirs and Madams,
First post,as a second year apprentice working with a very meticulous,neat and willing to teach older electrician,i have been shown on eicr and tests to always do the full crossover tests on ring final circuits.To verify continuity,polarity and non inter connection of the ring final circuit,not just end to end readings.Many thanks for all the good information on the site.
 
Dear Sirs and Madams,
First post,as a second year apprentice working with a very meticulous,neat and willing to teach older electrician,i have been shown on eicr and tests to always do the full crossover tests on ring final circuits.To verify continuity,polarity and non inter connection of the ring final circuit,not just end to end readings.Many thanks for all the good information on the site.

Have a read and understand guidance note 3
It will help you to get a "better" understanding of what is expected of the procedure required than you have at present
icon7.png
 
....or the cpc hasn't been terminated in a terminal which is pretty common especially on pre 17th edition as no testing was necessary and the cpc was just an earth and treated as unimportant in a switch. And the cover needs to come off the ceiling rose as a BC doesn't give an earth and nore does an ES usually, more than one light fitting per switch and you don't know if that has continuity without removing the cover.

My point was it just depends on what quality of work you do and IF you take signing your name to the report seriously or not.
If it's an EICR or periodic then you have NO idea what the guy was like who installed it or who has done what since.

Me I'm just a Part P'er so wouldn't presume to tell a proper sparks what to do but the guy who took my Part P course was great, (it was one of the first ones), one of the best courses I've ever been on and it reinforced a lot of things I'd done over the years and I found the reasons behind some things I'd read but not fully understood.
One thing I do have is respect for that thing we deal with as our job, it just loves to get out of that wire and get to earth, our job to make sure it doesn't but if/when it does then it gets there damn quick and blows the fuse!
 
....or the cpc hasn't been terminated in a terminal which is pretty common especially on pre 17th edition as no testing was necessary and the cpc was just an earth and treated as unimportant in a switch. And the cover needs to come off the ceiling rose as a BC doesn't give an earth and nore does an ES usually, more than one light fitting per switch and you don't know if that has continuity without removing the cover.

My point was it just depends on what quality of work you do and IF you take signing your name to the report seriously or not.
If it's an EICR or periodic then you have NO idea what the guy was like who installed it or who has done what since.

Me I'm just a Part P'er so wouldn't presume to tell a proper sparks what to do but the guy who took my Part P course was great, (it was one of the first ones), one of the best courses I've ever been on and it reinforced a lot of things I'd done over the years and I found the reasons behind some things I'd read but not fully understood.
One thing I do have is respect for that thing we deal with as our job, it just loves to get out of that wire and get to earth, our job to make sure it doesn't but if/when it does then it gets there damn quick and blows the fuse!
but it gives you an R1 though...doesn`t it...
 
.....Yes it could give R1 but from where, maybe not the rose as that may be the fly from a jb, etc, etc. If it's not your work then aren't you supposed to ensure continuity of CPC to EVERY termination so can't assume the guy did it right?
 
Right, im treading very carefully here...lol.

But there is a certain scenario where a tick is applicable in either the R1+R2 or R2 column instead of actual readings. Not that i've ever done it.

You are correct mark, on a periodic (EICR) a tick in the R1 or R1+R2 box is acceptable, not good practice, but is acceptable. I have never done it, and i dont teach it either, if you are going to measure it, then it is just as easy to enter the result instead of a tick, and dead testing is more likely to show up a fault than live testing.

Cheers..........Howard
 
you use the R1..at the drop..(furthest point) ...then using a wander lead get your R2 of the 3.5mm screw on the switch front...therefore negating the need to remove the front (think easily damaged decorations)....you would of course have confirmed beforehand on your inspections whether or not there was a CPC present as on some older installs (as you quite rightly point out) this isn`t always the case....
but as you stated before that all switchfronts have to be removed to get an
(R1 R2)...so this (as i have quite rightly pointed out) isn`t the case either....
it depends..from install to install....but your inspections/sampling should have verified this...
 
have to disagree , respectfully , with Howard here.
having just looked closely at the iet generic eicr form , a value is required to be recorded , a tick will not suffice.
unless the circuit is so short you can touch the ends simultaineously then you need to perform the measurement anyway making the whole arguement not to do it a mute point.
;-D
 

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