Electrical Diagrams

[sjj84]

can i just start by saying that when you are an apprentice that you are only as good as the people that train you ,,, you can only learn so much at college or tech the rest is learn or not learned on the job..... Employers need to invest more time and money into proper training of there apprentices.....

I tend to agree with this. My apprenticeship was largely a waste of time, pretty much soley being used as cheap labour for installation work. Now I struggle with some of the fault finding as I never gained the experience and it wasn't through lack of interest on my part.

The majority of the sparks where I work don't bother looking for drawings as they know they're out of date or missing, unfortunately the management couldn't care less as it's not them that'll be struggling in the middle of the night to sort out any problems.

Oh and I agree about the A4 drawings, the majority of ours are on massive sheets, granted they're mostly useless, but it's much easier to work through a circuit when it's all in front of you rather than flicking here and there all the time.

 

[Knobhead]

Just found this lurking on my PC
View attachment 11268
Part of a conveyor sysyem. There would be 10 times this on an A0 sheet.

I should point out. the wiring shown in purple is external to the MCC panel

 

[Bobster]

All the apprentices we've had over the past few years have had the same problem. Expecting everything on a plate. In fact in 5 years only one out of 20-30 has gone out of his way to learn more, and because of that fact he's now being given opertunitys above anything we've ever given. Rant over lol.

 

[Sparkattack]

My experience of reading and understanding wiring diagrams has mostly come from my day to day work in industry, i cant say I really learnt much at collage apart from the basic circuits. In my opinion you only get out what you put in! In other words you need to help yourself by getting involved and show willing to learn by getting involved in faults that arise. I suppose I was lucky when I was training because I had good guys around me that were willing to stand back and let me take over, but would help when I was struggling. Im nearly 5 years out of my time now, I dont consider myself to be the best maintenance electrician by far but what I have learnt on the job so far will hopefully give me a good grounding to improve on in the rest of my career. I also agree with having drawings on a larger print alot of the new panels were I working are are A3 which I suppose is better than A4!

 

[UNG]

The way I look at it whether they are A4, A3, A1 or A0 any size of schematic diagram is better than none at all when some one is breathing down your neck and the pressure is on

With regard to learning to read schematic diagrams at college we were given practical assignments and had to draw out the schematic before building the circuit on a board and proving it worked, understanding how the diagrams are constructed is half the battle when it comes to reading them

 

[Knobhead]

Drive references,
All the panels I worked on once we got rid on the open slate panels would be draw out starters. We would keep spares of these to hand. If you couldn’t repair a draw in situ you would get a spare and fit that. The internal wiring was numbered the same be it a 0.5HP drive or 150HP. Bigger drives were hard wired in the cubical.
View attachment 11273
It was the cubical that had the drive reference. I worked on kilns so the first reference would be the kiln number. Second reference the tier in the panel working from the left (a letter). Third reference was the cubical number from the top.
So for a cubical on kiln 2, 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] tier, 4[SUP]th[/SUP] cubical down the reference would be K2/C/4/ followed by the wire number.
View attachment 11274

 

[vaughant]

Some great replies as usual.
I certainly wasn't trying to slate apprentices in anyway,I'm just wondering if this is/was common practice to not put such an emphasis on drawings as on my apprenticeship we basically spent 2 years learning control circuits from diagrams,we would get or produce our own diagram,wire it on an old panel in the workshop,swap round and do a maintenance check on the panel that everything was in place,cable numbers,terminals tight etc then rectify any faults and leave the room.
Then the instructors would put various faults on and you were on your own then to find them,90 minutes for 3 faults,some were obvious like a wire out of say L1 to a motor so it turned slow and tripped but some could be really sneaky buggers and snip a return wire within trunking or remove the coil from a relay,sneaky stuff!!!
But it was good and very beneficial,I probably didn't feel that at the time but looking back I can see how great the training was and I'm glad I made it through.
I suppose that's the point of this thread,not to show how clever we are(or not in my case!!!) but to perhaps help others who may not have done a lot of this and spent most of their time looking at the "sparkies arse" while he fixes it and just tells them what it is afterwards,not much learning involved there.

To those who say there aren't good schematics where they work I feel your pain,theres a bad culture where I am of "he knows,ask him" not "there's the diagram,have a look" and also "that was changed 10 years ago,don't you remember?" not when I've been here a year no!!!

However the only way we can improve it is to be a bit more proactive,perhaps sketch it out one day when your free,even a basic drawing,or check who made alterations and see where it's documented,it usually is somewhere (usually obscure!!!).

I'll try getting some PLC diagrams up for the less familiar and a few explanations of how it all works.

 

[fancypantsyeah]

All the apprentices we've had over the past few years have had the same problem. Expecting everything on a plate. In fact in 5 years only one out of 20-30 has gone out of his way to learn more, and because of that fact he's now being given opertunitys above anything we've ever given. Rant over lol.

i can honestly say when i was an apprentice i went the extra mile as far as im concerned .... i love being a aspark and take real pride in my work.....
iknow the type of folk ya on about and they don't usually make good sparks just do enough to get by.....
but i stand by what i said some of the fellas that ive herad about in past cannot be arsed with it or have been to busy to train properly........
so it a double sided edge.......

 

[Engineer54]

i can honestly say when i was an apprentice i went the extra mile as far as im concerned .... i love being a aspark and take real pride in my work.....
iknow the type of folk ya on about and they don't usually make good sparks just do enough to get by.....
but i stand by what i said some of the fellas that ive herad about in past cannot be arsed with it or have been to busy to train properly........
so it a double sided edge.......

It's not only those that can't be arsed as you say..lol!! Some just don't have the aptitude for this kind of work, they just can't get there head around it. I've known some dammed good electricians and Engineers come to that, who just can't fault find process control circuitry. So it's not always just the lack of trying, but i agree with you, some are happy to just do enough to get by.

 

[fancypantsyeah]

It's not only those that can't be arsed as you say..lol!! Some just don't have the aptitude for this kind of work, they just can't get there head around it. I've known some dammed good electricians and Engineers come to that, who just can't fault find process control circuitry. So it's not always just the lack of trying, but i agree with you, some are happy to just do enough to get by.

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

 

[fancypantsyeah]

Some great replies as usual.
I certainly wasn't trying to slate apprentices in anyway,I'm just wondering if this is/was common practice to not put such an emphasis on drawings as on my apprenticeship we basically spent 2 years learning control circuits from diagrams,we would get or produce our own diagram,wire it on an old panel in the workshop,swap round and do a maintenance check on the panel that everything was in place,cable numbers,terminals tight etc then rectify any faults and leave the room.
Then the instructors would put various faults on and you were on your own then to find them,90 minutes for 3 faults,some were obvious like a wire out of say L1 to a motor so it turned slow and tripped but some could be really sneaky buggers and snip a return wire within trunking or remove the coil from a relay,sneaky stuff!!!
But it was good and very beneficial,I probably didn't feel that at the time but looking back I can see how great the training was and I'm glad I made it through.
I suppose that's the point of this thread,not to show how clever we are(or not in my case!!!) but to perhaps help others who may not have done a lot of this and spent most of their time looking at the "sparkies arse" while he fixes it and just tells them what it is afterwards,not much learning involved there.

To those who say there aren't good schematics where they work I feel your pain,theres a bad culture where I am of "he knows,ask him" not "there's the diagram,have a look" and also "that was changed 10 years ago,don't you remember?" not when I've been here a year no!!!

However the only way we can improve it is to be a bit more proactive,perhaps sketch it out one day when your free,even a basic drawing,or check who made alterations and see where it's documented,it usually is somewhere (usually obscure!!!).

I'll try getting some PLC diagrams up for the less familiar and a few explanations of how it all works.

iknow i have not had 2 years training looking at drawings , the old apprentice schemes were maybe more thorough than today.... i don't know.... everything seems to be fast track now........ or ya have to do another course to do be trained to read drawings ect , which meens more cash to be piad to get the said qualification......it never ends went ya a spark.....

 

[Engineer54]

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

Sorry, ...Miss read your post it seems...lol!!

 

[fancypantsyeah]

Sorry, ...Miss read your post it seems...lol!!

no problemo e54........ ive done that a few times myself....lol.....

 

[sjj84]

lol,,lol,,, i was on about the guys who sometimes et left to teach the new apprenices ,,, not the lads ho wanna be sparks.......the psarkies who choose or a choosen to teach the new lads should have to do a course of somekind to see if they have the right attitude and aptitude and pacience for the job in hand .... ya could be the best sparkie in the world but ya may not be able to teach others .......lol.......

Yep, I whole heartily agree. The other problem is that management are constantly on the backs of the sparks that are trying to teach to get machines working again. If the spark has been there a long time, they may well have seen the fault before, so rather than fault finding or using drawings, they go straight to the fault rather than allowing the apprentices to get stuck in and have a go. It's a difficult one really, apprentices need guidance, not having it handed on a plate, but sometimes that opportunity just isn't given.

 

[UNG]

Yep, I whole heartily agree. The other problem is that management are constantly on the backs of the sparks that are trying to teach to get machines working again. If the spark has been there a long time, they may well have seen the fault before, so rather than fault finding or using drawings, they go straight to the fault rather than allowing the apprentices to get stuck in and have a go. It's a difficult one really, apprentices need guidance, not having it handed on a plate, but sometimes that opportunity just isn't given.

That is the other side of fault finding were certain faults are recurring ones and are just fixed using previous knowledge and experience