"Electricians" working for kitchen fitters - please don't do this...

[Dartlec]

Called to a previous client to work out why he doesn't have lights or fan in his downstairs shower room, or outdoor light...

Worked out that there was no permanent live to the switch, though there was to the fan isolator above it....

Kitchen was recently done, and "electricians" working for the kitchen fitter changed the lights and added a new sub consumer unit for the relevant circuits

4 days later, the downstairs lights stopped working, so could be coincidence, but also seems likely they may have nudged a cable loose somewhere. So lifted the floorboards where they had accessed the existing light transformers to add their new lights - to find this:



No idea if they added the choc boxes (when were they first produced? Last kitchen work was done in 2003), but even so found this, connected their stuff to it - and happily put the floor back down...

Opened the choc box and this is what happened:



And incidentally for some bizarre reason there is 2.5mm cable joining those boxes, even though it is all on the switched feed to the lights...

And this is how they connected another of the leads to their LAP downlights



While this may have been already there, they left it and didn't take the 5 minutes to correct (earth cut back)



And to top it all, the cables into their Axiom consumer unit : No gland or grommet, but lots of silicone...




It's not the quality of the brands that matter here, it's the fact that they couldn't be bothered to take even a few minutes to do things vaguely properly....

To be honest, Wago connectors would have been easier and likely quicker that this mess, regardless of what the right way is....

Client doesn't want them back, so now I need to not only sort this crap, but have more floor up to find where the missing permanent live has come loose...

I've worked for bathroom and kitchen fitters and know the pressures on time, etc - but it's still possible to do a job that won't have the next person cursing your contribution to the world....

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm as cynical as they come, but find it hard to believe an electrican did that.

 

[Dartlec]

"Part P" certificate is promised apparently, so we'll see what comes of that...

Was apparently separate electricians from the kitchen fitter - who I might have believed could have done that....

 

[Dustydazzler]

NO WAY A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN DID THIS

 

[Planctonboy]

NO WAY A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN DID THIS

I've worked for kitchen fitters for many years. I've seen all the things that have been described here and worse. I think it's a problem of the mentality of some electricians. There seems to be loads of domestic electricians that think they're a good sparky if they're fast. And of course the faster you get through a job the more money you can earn both in terms of doing more work in a day and finishing a job quicker than the time you quoted but still charging the same price. This is a big problem.
My approach has always been - leave the job being proud of your vworkmanship, and knowing that it's safer when you left it than it was before you started. If you can't tick these two boxes then what's the point??

 

[LukeD]

It down to £££££ .How much the client wants to spend and how cheap the sparks can do it for and move onto the next job etc

 

[Planctonboy]

It down to £££££ .How much the client wants to spend and how cheap the sparks can do it for and move onto the next job etc

Don't agree. If the customer has an idea of what they want but the price is too high, then the solution is to rethink what they want, supply cheaper fittings etc, or find an electrician who will work for less.

The solution is not to do a poor job that doesn't meet the regs and then take the money and run...

The trade is governed by standards fior good reason. They can't be ignored and then use cost saving as an excuse.

 

[LukeD]

Don't agree. If the customer has an idea of what they want but the price is too high, then the solution is to rethink what they want, supply cheaper fittings etc, or find an electrician who will work for less.

The solution is not to do a poor job that doesn't meet the regs and then take the money and run...

The trade is governed by standards fior good reason. They can't be ignored and then use cost saving as an excuse.

The trade is governed by standards ....! I really wish it was and only governed by Government not private companies . Far too many people just want a cheap job and dont worry about the risks etc .And many trades will pick up these jobs as they are always cash and easy .

 

[littlespark]

I’m fighting my way through a kitchen refit as we speak.

Found 2 old backboxes with live joints behind the tiles, Spurs off spurs, and a number of loose connections. Done by a local kitchen fitting company 25 years ago.

The new kitchen isn’t much better. Joiner had (almost) drilled through a cable which is in a safe zone, and he’s cut the plug off the brand new fridge freezer rather than drill a big enough hole.

and for some reason, whatever plumber it is, always floods out the sink unit.

It’s not just dodgy electricians

 

[Planctonboy]

The trade is governed by standards ....! I really wish it was and only governed by Government not private companies . Far too many people just want a cheap job and dont worry about the risks etc .And many trades will pick up these jobs as they are always cash and easy .

Fair point.

I think it is governed by standards but probably more accurate to say the standards are poorly enforced.

Yes there will always be bad electricians that do sub standard jobs for cash you're right about that. Maybe if it was properly policed and the public properly educated about the dangers then that would reduce the incidences of really poor installations. Propper prosecution and large fines would also help. But there doesn't seem the will to go down that road.

Personally I couldn't live with the thought that something I'd done could burn someone's house down or cause electric shock. I'm sure loads of electricians feel the same.

 

[ipf]

The trade is governed by standards ....! I really wish it was and only governed by Government not private companies . Far too many people just want a cheap job and dont worry about the risks etc .And many trades will pick up these jobs as they are always cash and easy .

Indeed, they will, but being a qualified tradesperson should involve an element of conscience as well as a fair amount of conscientious skill.
These are just selfless idiots.....and by the bus load.
The deterioration is frightening and, as said for the last 10 years, things continue to worsen.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Some incredibly shoddy work I have seen the people who actually did it when you speak yo them are convinced their work is decent

not everyone has high standards , infact I would argue most people have quite low standards

 

[nicebutdim]

The new kitchen isn’t much better. Joiner had (almost) drilled through a cable which is in a safe zone, and he’s cut the plug off the brand new fridge freezer rather than drill a big enough hole.

I reckon pot luck is employed when fitting wall units - they don't seem to care if an accessory is directly below - just cross fingers and close eyes.

 

[telectrix]

I reckon pot luck is employed when fitting wall units - they don't seem to care if an accessory is directly below - just cross fingers and close eyes.

morerlike cross eyes and close brain.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's not always the fault of the kitchen fitter. If the fixing bracket for a wall unit has to go there, it has to go there.
Whenever I've wired a kitchen, I've obtained a copy of the plans, confirmed with the client that these are the final plans, written in stone, and won't be deviated from. then confirmed that again a day or two later. I then design the electrics so that my chases come, as near as possible, to the middle of the gap between where all the unit fixings will be, or at least, well away from them.

 

[littlespark]

In this instance, it was the original cooker cable, not a circuit i had to work on... just refitting the hob where it had been previously. Running down to the floor. Just so happened to be in line where two base units met. He was going to screw those little metal right angle brackets to the wall.
Luckily he did ask where the cable might be....

 

[nicebutdim]

It's not always the fault of the kitchen fitter. If the fixing bracket for a wall unit has to go there, it has to go there.
Whenever I've wired a kitchen, I've obtained a copy of the plans, confirmed with the client that these are the final plans, written in stone, and won't be deviated from. then confirmed that again a day or two later. I then design the electrics so that my chases come, as near as possible, to the middle of the gap between where all the unit fixings will be, or at least, well away from them.

Fair point, but most of the kitchens I see are solid backed and fixings don't need to be in an exact spot.

 

[telectrix]

Fair point, but most of the kitchens I see are solid backed and fixings don't need to be in an exact spot.

yous got kitchens in Ireland????? whatever next. flush toilets? ???

 

[nicebutdim]

yous got kitchens in Ireland????? whatever next. flush toilets? ???

Flushed over the back fence...

 

[brianmoooore]

Fair point, but most of the kitchens I see are solid backed and fixings don't need to be in an exact spot.

Base units, maybe, but most wall units have two brackets that fit to the wall 20mm in from the outer edge of the cabinet, and engage with fittings on the cabinet that allow up and down adjustment to position them accurately.

 

[nicebutdim]

Base units, maybe, but most wall units have two brackets that fit to the wall 20mm in from the outer edge of the cabinet, and engage with fittings on the cabinet that allow up and down adjustment to position them accurately.

Most manufacturer's here in NI (big sheds excepted) tend to have solid backed wall units that fit almost flush to the wall. No brackets - just drill through and fix straight to wall.

 

[Dartlec]

Most manufacturer's here in NI (big sheds excepted) tend to have solid backed wall units that fit almost flush to the wall. No brackets - just drill through and fix straight to wall.

I'm sure they're nice when the client calls you in because they've suddenly decided they want under cabinet lights? ?

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm sure they're nice when the client calls you in because they've suddenly decided they want under cabinet lights? ?

It's something that I'm aware of for potential future employment. Some will have sufficient space for 0.75mm, but it's not uncommon to see cables routed inside corner units. Maybe luck might provide a filler at the end of a run of wall units.


Edit: Just looked at my own kitchen. One fed behind filler at end of units, but two fed inside dutch corner unit. Not sure why as there was sufficient space to feed from other end of wall units and then link those two lights.

I'd post some images, but not in the mood to reset forum password to upload from mobile.

 

[Dartlec]

Update on original post:

Sometimes I assume I must have ----ed off the electrical gods in a previous life with the jobs I get.

Finally went back to sort out the original issue today...spent a while looking under floors, assuming it was something the 'electricians' had done (not an unreasonable assumption)

Turned out to be a Fused Spur in the adjacent garage where the fuse had blown....?

Probably put in to satisfy the fan instructions for 5A, even though the circuit is on a 6A MCB....Would have been nice of them to label it though!

So 4-5 hours of diagnosis for what turned out to be a 5 minute fix.....

And then because I'd uncovered the crap job the electricians had done with the junction boxes, I felt I had to fix that before putting the floor back down....

To further add to the amusement - the lighting circuit they switched to their new shiny Axiom CU turns out not to be the one that covers the kitchen at all - and does something we weren't able to identify... Maybe their certificate when it comes through will shed some light, but somehow I doubt it.

But today I saw the Part P notification - completed by an NICEIC Domestic Installer, with an associated certificate number, so the firm in question are apparently happy to put their name to this shambles!

I sorted the junction boxes with proper connectors and junction boxes, but the new downlights had their long 2 core flex running through joists etc back to the junction boxes - so if/when they fail it will be a floor up job to replace them rather than a simple fix from below.

 

[e-spark]

It down to £££££ .How much the client wants to spend and how cheap the sparks can do it for and move onto the next job etc

i give a price if its not acceptable they can get someone else its that easy. as the saying goes anyone can work for nothing.

 

[ipf]

I sorted the junction boxes with proper connectors and junction boxes, but the new downlights had their long 2 core flex running through joists etc back to the junction boxes - so if/when they fail it will be a floor up job to replace them rather than a simple fix from below.

That's a disgusting trait....presuming you mean there's no accessible connection point.

 

[Dartlec]

That's a disgusting trait....presuming you mean there's no accessible connection point.

Correct - only by lifting a carpet and removing floorboards above. Barely even enough slack on the flex on some of them to remove the lights from the ceiling I suspect.

The correct way would have been a wagolite box or similar above each light so they could be easily replaced...and would have cost maybe a whole £10-15 more.

Instead they accessed where the original lights transformers were from above, and ran the 2 core flylead from each light back to that - including through joists...

Since the flylead from the downlights is 2 core, also no chance of an earth connection in the future if replacing with a Class 1 light without running new cabling.

Maybe they thought if they didn't install new cable it couldn't be blamed on them - what they didn't think was how can I leave a job that the next electrician along will look at and think "not bad", which is the minimum I try to achieve at least!

They did apparently quote for a whole replacement CU at £600+, or an additional sub board for £150ish. The existing one is a mess to be fair and £600 was probably a fair price (except that they'd probably have bunged in a Screwfix Special dual RCD at that price)

Then they moved the existing oven, kitchen sockets and 'lighting' onto the new board - except that the lighting they moved isn't for the lights they installed but for something else that I couldn't identify....

Cracking job all round in other words!

 

[Markyd]

name them