fire alarm system | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss fire alarm system in the Security Alarms, Door Entry and CCTV (Public) area at ElectriciansForums.net

S

sima24

Hi, does anyone know of if a fire alarm system for a block of flats needs any special requirements in terms of commisioning & signing off? Been asked to do one for a block of flats im rewiring but unsire if the work needs completing & commisioning from a fire company or not. Thanks
 
Hi, does anyone know of if a fire alarm system for a block of flats needs any special requirements in terms of commisioning & signing off? Been asked to do one for a block of flats im rewiring but unsire if the work needs completing & commisioning from a fire company or not. Thanks

Well, rule #1 - arse, covered.

Depends on a number of things - such as who requested the system be put in, what are landlord requirements for it, are the Fire Service involved, can competence be shown if needed at all stages - from design - maintenance.

The way to look at it is who's butt is going to get bitten if there's an issue, and say the alarm does not operate? Or operate in the required time?

If you're not sure it complies, even if you install to the design given .... best see rule #1.... rinse, then repeat....
 
Yeh thats what i thought. I said to builder on day 1 that he needed to get a fire company to sort out communal fire alarm system, hes been nagging me to do it amd my response was exatcly that. Thanks
 
Yeh thats what i thought. I said to builder on day 1 that he needed to get a fire company to sort out communal fire alarm system, hes been nagging me to do it amd my response was exatcly that. Thanks

No prob - if it's communal, odds are it will need to be BS5839-1 compliant - part 6 only applies when there's no commercial element to the building.

Best all round to take a view, and tell the builder to get a compliant design from the architect. It's impossible to tell what the requirements might be, other than from plans, or a site visit *(as built).

What part of the country are you - out of interest....
 
Best bet is to choose a system, and then get them to design the installation for you, with a quote for the materials. Then if your capable of following their drawing(s) install the system yourself, and get them or another registered company to do the testing & commissioning. Fire alarms are not rocket science, but they do carry statutory regulations....
 
Best bet is to choose a system, and then get them to design the installation for you, with a quote for the materials. Then if your capable of following their drawing(s) install the system yourself, and get them or another registered company to do the testing & commissioning. Fire alarms are not rocket science, but they do carry statutory regulations....

It's the stat regs that carry the sting these days.

2012 saw nearly thirty "alarm" engineers prosecuted for a variety of things, not least incompetent maintenance, incorrect design, and so on.

I would also add that one firm, from memory, hung a guy out to dry who was supposed to be designing for them too.

We did a lot of work for a refurb contractor - who used an "all in one" design service - for the entire refit, including power, alarms, colour of the carpet etc. Initially, we threw back incorrect designs, having corrected them ourselves - until we discovered the design company was then simply re-marking up the drawings and charging over £500 for an amendment.... we very quickly moved to simply sending them back "does not meet requirements of an Lx system" - want to bet how quickly that design firm was on the phone to us?

You're dead right, though that pretty well anyone can install a fire alarm system..... to a degree, and you're dead right too that they're not rocket science - but the combination of ability, knowledge, and risk all have to be weighed.

Bottom line - even if a fire alarm system is NOT required - e.g. not mandatory in a building - if it's wrong, and an incident occurs where liability can be placed on the system, they WILL come after you. That's fact now.

Most fire alarm systems should be based on risk assessed - which is why Fire Risk Assessment should be carried out by a qualified Risk Assessor (and not the five question wonder you'll find on the HSE website)....taking into account other forms of fire protection, design of building, risk from ignition sources, and more. That bit is more scientific now, if not on the level of rocket science...usually. A competent FRA should be able to determine the need for, and category of, fire system required. From there, design is a matter of ability, knowledge, and competence.

Most manufacturers will be less inclined to design a system these days, unless you agree to indemnify them totally from any errors and omissions...and will not, in any case certify the design.

By far the safest option these days is to pass design to a (specialist) company prepared to certify the design, and underwrite the risk in that - and even then, such as ourselves, unless we can work from plans and/or a site visit, we'd only certify design if we were also commissioning. In this way we can be sure that what we're certifying is compliant and has been properly installed (justifies our risk, and saves potential heartache down the line) - we also do this to ensure installers have someone to turn to.

I turned up to a system we designed in 2009, to do the commissioning and found, despite our best endeavours, that the whole system had been run in with twin and earth....because the guy, by all accounts a decent sparks, had "always done it that way".... yep....not since 1998 though.

Potentially, these days, the hidden pitfalls are severe enough that it's fast becoming a case of you either do fire, or you don't....and if you do, cover for liability, specialist risks, wrongful advice, failure to perform, and professional indemnity are among the minimums you'll want.

The above are all key reasons that we're going for SP203 this year, and intend to keep it.

I'm not intent on scare-mongering by any means, quite the opposite - as you'll all see I'm happy to give all the advice I can too - but as I'm sure a few of the other "fire" guys here will testify, it's not the job it once was, and well, the heat isn't only coming from the fire, pardon the pun.
 
Thanks for the advice, think im defo going to get him to het a fire company. Not worth the hassle for me to be honest, would not trust any drawings given to me as we have already had to pretty much make it up as we go along, drawings are all over the place so owner said " just do what you think" :)
 
It's the stat regs that carry the sting these days.

2012 saw nearly thirty "alarm" engineers prosecuted for a variety of things, not least incompetent maintenance, incorrect design, and so on.

I would also add that one firm, from memory, hung a guy out to dry who was supposed to be designing for them too.

We did a lot of work for a refurb contractor - who used an "all in one" design service - for the entire refit, including power, alarms, colour of the carpet etc. Initially, we threw back incorrect designs, having corrected them ourselves - until we discovered the design company was then simply re-marking up the drawings and charging over £500 for an amendment.... we very quickly moved to simply sending them back "does not meet requirements of an Lx system" - want to bet how quickly that design firm was on the phone to us?

You're dead right, though that pretty well anyone can install a fire alarm system..... to a degree, and you're dead right too that they're not rocket science - but the combination of ability, knowledge, and risk all have to be weighed.

Bottom line - even if a fire alarm system is NOT required - e.g. not mandatory in a building - if it's wrong, and an incident occurs where liability can be placed on the system, they WILL come after you. That's fact now.

Most fire alarm systems should be based on risk assessed - which is why Fire Risk Assessment should be carried out by a qualified Risk Assessor (and not the five question wonder you'll find on the HSE website)....taking into account other forms of fire protection, design of building, risk from ignition sources, and more. That bit is more scientific now, if not on the level of rocket science...usually. A competent FRA should be able to determine the need for, and category of, fire system required. From there, design is a matter of ability, knowledge, and competence.

Most manufacturers will be less inclined to design a system these days, unless you agree to indemnify them totally from any errors and omissions...and will not, in any case certify the design.

By far the safest option these days is to pass design to a (specialist) company prepared to certify the design, and underwrite the risk in that - and even then, such as ourselves, unless we can work from plans and/or a site visit, we'd only certify design if we were also commissioning. In this way we can be sure that what we're certifying is compliant and has been properly installed (justifies our risk, and saves potential heartache down the line) - we also do this to ensure installers have someone to turn to.

I turned up to a system we designed in 2009, to do the commissioning and found, despite our best endeavours, that the whole system had been run in with twin and earth....because the guy, by all accounts a decent sparks, had "always done it that way".... yep....not since 1998 though.

Potentially, these days, the hidden pitfalls are severe enough that it's fast becoming a case of you either do fire, or you don't....and if you do, cover for liability, specialist risks, wrongful advice, failure to perform, and professional indemnity are among the minimums you'll want.

The above are all key reasons that we're going for SP203 this year, and intend to keep it.

I'm not intent on scare-mongering by any means, quite the opposite - as you'll all see I'm happy to give all the advice I can too - but as I'm sure a few of the other "fire" guys here will testify, it's not the job it once was, and well, the heat isn't only coming from the fire, pardon the pun.

Quite understand what your saying here, and it should be noted by anyone thinking about installing a fire alarm system off their own bat, so-to-speak!!

We send our buildings drawing off to established fire alarm/BMS companies who will then design and do a material take-off. As you can imagine, the contract price will be substantial on a project of this size, that will cover several buildings. There are also specialised areas that need enhanced fire detection and protection.

The contractor will be undertaking all of the actual installations following the detailed drawings and specifications etc. I will be conducting the testing and commissioning of the fire alarm system. (it will be a combined BMS/Fire alarm system) on completion. The BMS and fire alarm programming and setting up will be by the supplier.

It's a bit difficult to explain here, without going into too much detail, but basically as far as the fire alarm system is concerned, the supplier will be signing off on the design, I will be signing off on the installation and building by building testing and commissioning, and the supplier will be signing off on the completed system (BMS/Fire alarm).

Note... The BMS system sits on it's own contract, and although thoroughly integrated with the fire alarm system has it's own installation/commissioning specifications etc...
 
Quite understand what your saying here, and it should be noted by anyone thinking about installing a fire alarm system off their own bat, so-to-speak!!

We send our buildings drawing off to established fire alarm/BMS companies who will then design and do a material take-off. As you can imagine, the contract price will be substantial on a project of this size, that will cover several buildings. There are also specialised areas that need enhanced fire detection and protection.

The contractor will be undertaking all of the actual installations following the detailed drawings and specifications etc. I will be conducting the testing and commissioning of the fire alarm system. (it will be a combined BMS/Fire alarm system) on completion. The BMS and fire alarm programming and setting up will be by the supplier.

It's a bit difficult to explain here, without going into too much detail, but basically as far as the fire alarm system is concerned, the supplier will be signing off on the design, I will be signing off on the installation and building by building testing and commissioning, and the supplier will be signing off on the completed system (BMS/Fire alarm).

Note... The BMS system sits on it's own contract, and although thoroughly integrated with the fire alarm system has it's own installation/commissioning specifications etc...

Yup. Much of that is standard practice, especially for larger systems - and how I don't miss sitting down to work out 3000 lines of cause and effect only to find that we triggered the wrong BMS relay for the phase being shut down in a given scenario! I knew a hospital very much like that once.

BMS systems obviously don't come within the remit of BS5839, and so should be distinct in all respects - I have some (limited) knoweldge of Trend among others - would NOT desire to design a system though.

Interesting point though is it's more or less exactly what I was saying about third party testing - which SP203 and common sense happily (!) bring to the fire business, yet which is so not allowed in electrical.
 

Reply to fire alarm system in the Security Alarms, Door Entry and CCTV (Public) area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
As the holiday season approaches, PCBWay is thrilled to announce their Christmas & New Year Promotions! Whether you’re an engineer or an...
Replies
0
Views
791
  • Article
Bloody Hell! Wishing you a speedy recovery and hope (if) anyone else involved is ok. Ivan
    • Friendly
    • Like
Replies
13
Views
1K
  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
978

Similar threads

I challenged a council on having the same system installed in an HMO. One consideration is if the flats/escape route were made to The Building...
Replies
1
Views
437
Thank you all, yes I didn’t think they do and I have done minor works but the helpline was not very helpful. Got my yearly assessment soon so I...
Replies
4
Views
412

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top