Fire alarm

[Havvy]

Hi everyone I need abit of help!! I have been given a job no need to price just given so can't turn it down!!haha I just don't know too much about fire alarms.
it's a 3 storey house with 5 flats in it with a communal stairway and kitchen.
could some please help me with the design please!?

heat detectors in each flat,
break glass on top and bottom floor and exit in kitchen,
heat detector in kitchen with sounder,
Smoke detectors in communal stairway with two sounders.
thats what I think??
Any recommendations on how to wire would be good too!
sounder circuit,
then split the rest in to 2 circuits.

i will have someone to counter sign what I do!!
any help would be great or tell me what am doing wrong!
thanks craig

 

[Phil L]

You have to have 2 sounder circuits if your doing a conventional system

 

[ayjay]

best to get someone who knows what there doing, an experienced sparky

 

[MDJ]

Hi everyone I need abit of help!! I have been given a job no need to price just given so can't turn it down!!haha I just don't know too much about fire alarms.
it's a 3 storey house with 5 flats in it with a communal stairway and kitchen.
could some please help me with the design please!?

heat detectors in each flat,
break glass on top and bottom floor and exit in kitchen,
heat detector in kitchen with sounder,
Smoke detectors in communal stairway with two sounders.
thats what I think??
Any recommendations on how to wire would be good too!
sounder circuit,
then split the rest in to 2 circuits.

i will have someone to counter sign what I do!!
any help would be great or tell me what am doing wrong!
thanks craig

Have you read Tazz's thread yet? if not please do, everything you need to know is in it

 

[the pict]

You need to give this some serious thought, remote indicators, call points, slave panels are just three items you have not thought of, I would pass this up mate as it is one awesome resposibilty, and given the size it may well come under the local fire safety enforcement officer, I always involve them from the get go
Pict

 

[tazz]

This sounds like standard HMO, Grade A...heats in all flats plus you will need solo mains smokes in each flat for local warning.
No need to pass this up, as local orthority will have done all the fire risk assessment for you, for the HMO licence. Best way of installing this is a twin wire system, Kentec Sigma, or Haes Excel , both panels will take any detection make on sav bases, ie Apollo S65, Hochiki etc. Using this system will allow you to wire one fp200 to each floor for both sirens and detection, saving time and expense. After wiring ground floor, you will only be taking 2 fps to first floor and one to secound floor loft, so worst case is a 25x16mm trunking.

 

[ayjay]

emergency lighting too ???--- duhh!!
honestly, i get really pis-d off-at most of the idiot posts on here
how some landlord can ask a clueless dipstick to install such an important thing is beyond me
--------------

i mean someone comes onto a forum tells that they know sweet f/a about fire alarms and asks others how to do it is beyond comprehension

 

[micknew]

Hi everyone I need abit of help!! I have been given a job no need to price just given so can't turn it down!!haha I just don't know too much about fire alarms.
it's a 3 storey house with 5 flats in it with a communal stairway and kitchen.
could some please help me with the design please!?

heat detectors in each flat,
break glass on top and bottom floor and exit in kitchen,
heat detector in kitchen with sounder,
Smoke detectors in communal stairway with two sounders.
thats what I think??
Any recommendations on how to wire would be good too!
sounder circuit,
then split the rest in to 2 circuits.

i will have someone to counter sign what I do!!
any help would be great or tell me what am doing wrong!
thanks craig

Another DIYer or builder not wanting to give the job to a qualified electrician.

 

[tazz]

I am presuming this guy is a electrician, and as stated, all risk assessment, including fire, em lighting, fire doors, extingusher are all set out under the HMO licence. The local fire officer and local HMO officer will have already sorted the requirements out, including drawings.

 

[ayjay]

unlightly tazz

 

[tazz]

To be honest Ayjay.....his statement of whats required is straight off a HMO report, he knows its a Grade A, he has got the heat detectors in every flat right. Now most would be posting on here "Fit Aico Wireless there great" and some of the replies have not been much better. But as you know I would aways help any electrician out

 

[ayjay]

but is he an electrician tazz?
i spent years installing fire alarms as a subby the last one i did was at b@q castlelepoint

 

[tazz]

I am reading between the lines, that he is....or seems to be..so have given the benifit of the daught.
I see you are not at present an Arms member, maybe worth requesting access, as a design engineer, we have many threads and discussions on HMO and construstion fire design an installation, maybe of interest.

 

[v.elec]

This is easy. A conventional system is just loads of radial circuits in FP200 with EOL capacitors and resistors. Just make sure you the fit equipment as per the regulations a.k.a correct heights and distances, etc. I'd take the job. Yas.

 

[tazz]

This is easy. A conventional system is just loads of radial circuits in FP200 with EOL capacitors and resistors. Just make sure you the fit equipment as per the regulations a.k.a correct heights and distances, etc. I'd take the job. Yas.

So a load of radial circuits installed in somebodys property, with no thaught of how to decrease the amount of FP you are going to install, or how you are going to install over 3 floors. As a matter of interest what would you be installing her...?

 

[v.elec]

So a load of radial circuits installed in somebodys property, with no thaught of how to decrease the amount of FP you are going to install, or how you are going to install over 3 floors. As a matter of interest what would you be installing her...?

Zone and sounders on the same circuit would be ideal in reducing cost of cable, if this what you talking about. Fike (previously Rafiki) have a system called Twinflex, in which sounders and detection devices are on the same circuit.

"As a matter of interest what would you be installing her...?"

Now this is a silly question because, as any qualified electrician or fire alarm engineer knows, for me to correctly design a system of this type, I would require site drawings. Who said I never "thought" about what equipment I would install?

 

[Amp David]

Just turned an install down this morning in an old peoples home as i know hardly anything about fire alarms.

 

[Brightspark2]

so worst case is a 25x16mm trunking.

Plastic trunking?...

 

[tazz]

Rafiki is the worst system on the market, and one of the most troublesome systems todate....made solo for electrical wholsellers....Plastic trunking is fully complient with BS5839, as long as the cable is fire proof (FP200) and clip within the trunking for support.

I expected a response such as this using Rafiki and non compliant EN54 equipment. We have discussed this so many times on this forum, but installers still think they are covered with their installations. Well be prepared to joined the 4 sparks serving time for manslaughter...its a dangerous business.

 

[Brightspark2]

Plastic trunking is fully complient with BS5839, as long as the cable is fire proof (FP200) and clip within the trunking for support.

:icon4:

 

[v.elec]

Rafiki is the worst system on the market, and one of the most troublesome systems todate....made solo for electrical wholsellers....Plastic trunking is fully complient with BS5839, as long as the cable is fire proof (FP200) and clip within the trunking for support.

I expected a response such as this using Rafiki and non compliant EN54 equipment. We have discussed this so many times on this forum, but installers still think they are covered with their installations. Well be prepared to joined the 4 sparks serving time for manslaughter...its a dangerous business.

Installed over 100no fire alarm systems in modular office/school accommodation, nearly half of them are Rafiki Systems, not a single problem with the systems, not to mention clerk of works, inspectors or fire officers. Passed every install, every time. And they have never failed me. Still a free man. Yas.

 

[tazz]

Installed over 100no fire alarm systems in modular office/school accommodation, nearly half of them are Rafiki Systems, not a single problem with the systems, not to mention clerk of works, inspectors or fire officers. Passed every install, every time. And they have never failed me. Still a free man. Yas.

Amateur equipment for amateur installers...Try fitting professional alarms to EN54/2 & En54/4. If you buy from a professional outlet, instead of a electrical wholeseller, you might save some money.
Rafiki smoke sensor...£22 ...Apollo S65 Approved smoke sensor...£8
Rafiki call point ...£14.....KAC approved call point...£4.50

To cover schools I presume you are a member of BAFE and LPCB...?

 

[v.elec]

Amateur equipment for amateur installers...Try fitting professional alarms to EN54/2 & En54/4. If you buy from a professional outlet, instead of a electrical wholeseller, you might save some money.
Rafiki smoke sensor...£22 ...Apollo S65 Approved smoke sensor...£8
Rafiki call point ...£14.....KAC approved call point...£4.50

To cover schools I presume you are a member of BAFE and LPCB...?

Ok, so I have made almost £300,000 from installing Rafiki and C Tec Apollo fire alarms systems over a 5 year period, as well as other price work, including heating installations and energy efficient installs.
Installed for major modular construction organisations in the U.K at London Heathrow T5, Manchester City Council, BP Chemicals, EDF, Exxonmobil. This list is endless.

NICEIC approved contractor and domestic installer, Trustmark, BAFE, Constructionline, ECA.

If somebody has got the contacts, completed the tenders, won the contracts, made the money and still continuing to operate as a business, then they are no amateur.

 

[tazz]

So you are telling this forum that an architec has designed a school using Rafiki systems.....total rubbish and lies...no designer would allow anything less than an addressable system in schools and pubic buildings....Heathrow is totally Gent addressable for starters. So suggest you take your part Pee, and paid amateur Trustmark & Constructionline. And sit some FIA exam modules.
But again thank you for the entertainment, we have enjoyed the rubbish you have posted

 

[soulman]

To the OP, if i were you i would certainly give it go. Passing things on to other electricians means you'll never learn anything. There are fire alarm & emergency lighting training courses & electricians guides & i'm sure tazz will steer you in the right direction.

 

[v.elec]

So you are telling this forum that an architec has designed a school using Rafiki systems.....total rubbish and lies...no designer would allow anything less than an addressable system in schools and pubic buildings....Heathrow is totally Gent addressable for starters. So suggest you take your part Pee, and paid amateur Trustmark & Constructionline. And sit some FIA exam modules.
But again thank you for the entertainment, we have enjoyed the rubbish you have posted

Rolling my eyes here Tazz...

You haven't read my posts, you have? Please read the part where it states MODULAR OFFICE and school ACCOMMODATION.

Please look up "Modular Building" or "System Building" on google images Tazz, or any other person incapable of reading a post. A modular building is temporary PORTABLE accommodation for schools and offices. NOT a permanent brick structure educational facility itself. There is NO architect. The electrical, fire and security installations are designed by CAD estimators. the buildings are only there for two years, then moved.

So you are wrong, I DID do the fire alarms at the TEMPORARY OFFICE BLOCKS at T5 during it's construction, and I HAVE done many Rafiki Systems in modular classroom blocks for schools. And I HAVE been paid and still get more work from them.
The problem with people like you is, you think you know everything when, quite simply, you don't.

 

[tazz]

Keep dreaming and carry on house bashing with your part Pee, you are a wiring subby nothing else. Leave the design and installation of fire alarms to people who are qualified to do so. In this trade amateur sparks like you with very minimual qualifications put peoples lives in danger. But believe they know what they are doing. How any company can survive on £300k over 5 years or £60k per year is frieghtning

 

[v.elec]

"How any company can survive on £300k over 5 years or £60k per year is frieghtning"

Three points before I go.

1.

£300K net profit in five years, not turnover.

2.

You also haven't read my post, AGAIN. Confirming your illiteracy.

3.

I can't knock back the work Tazz. I have to continue doing what I am doing, and as long as every one is happy with our work, I will continue to turnover £200,000 per year, without your silly input.

 

[tom79bmth]

Hi Tazz

I can see you know the regs on fire alarms well, just a quick question. Just looking at a job there are 2 old flats sharing a communal area they are going to put 1 more flat sharing the communal area with the old 2 flats, will a fire alarm be needed in the communal area, all flats are self contained and have heat and smoke alarms in. Not 100% sure but if I remember correctly that under 5 flats don't need a fire alarm.

 

[tazz]

Hi Tazz

I can see you know the regs on fire alarms well, just a quick question. Just looking at a job there are 2 old flats sharing a communal area they are going to put 1 more flat sharing the communal area with the old 2 flats, will a fire alarm be needed in the communal area, all flats are self contained and have heat and smoke alarms in. Not 100% sure but if I remember correctly that under 5 flats don't need a fire alarm.

The communial area is classed as a circulation area or escape route, and will need protection if this is the only route into all flats. Building control will look for fire protection and emergency lighting to cover this. The flats themsevles, are not to be connected to this system, apart from a sounder within each hallway. A risk assessment should be conducted, and passed before work starts.
As a Pub Member read my thread on Complete fire alarms

 

[tazz]

I can't knock back the work Tazz. I have to continue doing what I am doing, and as long as every one is happy with our work, I will continue to turnover £200,000 per year, without your silly input.

And continue to put peoples lives in danger...by being young and inexperience, unquailified and having a large ego...
If you had come on this forum with a better attitude...there are members who would have showed your the principals on fire alarms and how to save money on professional installation equipment and proceedures

 

[Sparkytlec]

There are many fire alarm company's that would be happy to design, supply materials & commission while you do the installation. Our local wholesalers haves service like this. It takes the hassle out of fire alarms but you still get the job. We do this regularly it's a far easier option.

 

[soulman]

There are many fire alarm company's that would be happy to design, supply materials & commission while you do the installation. Our local wholesalers haves service like this. It takes the hassle out of fire alarms but you still get the job. We do this regularly it's a far easier option.

Sparklec that's a really useful bit of info.

 

[tazz]

There are many fire alarm company's that would be happy to design, supply materials & commission while you do the installation. Our local wholesalers haves service like this. It takes the hassle out of fire alarms but you still get the job. We do this regularly it's a far easier option.

This is the whole part of our business, and what links us with the electrical industry. If were working on a project the sparks are the first guys we approach to install our system.....its a great partnership and cost saving way forward.....we design the sparks install we commission....or they get the job and we design commission.