Fire panel on RCD???

[Jay Sparks]

Hi Guys & Gals,

So I work part time at a nursing home doing maintenance (handy man) and the owners are haveing the fire panel and smokes upgraded. Basically, it was a 4 zone panel and now they are having the home split into 10 zones and are having a 14 zone panel fitted. So I was talking to the guy doing the work and when he came to fit the panel, he asked me to isolate the mcb feeding the spur/panel. So I did this and he asked if it was on an RCD?? I said "no! Just a noraml mcb". Now I dont know much about fire panels but I know that with smokes, in a house, it is best not to put them on an RCD because of nusance tripping, so I assumed this would be the same with fire panels but the guy said "no, they need to be on an RCD!!! doesnt every circuit now?" So I said. "well YOU know the the relevent regs more than me, so you must be right". And he just shrugged his shoulders and said, " I dont really know the regs, ha ha ha." Now, as Ive said earlier, I dont know much about fire panels but I know there are certain regs for fire, bs5????.

So who is right?
Should a fire panel be RCD/RCBO protected?


Cheers

Jay

 

[RISElectrical]

Should not be RCD protected IMO and should be a dedicated supply from the origin of supply... I.e. from db1 and not from a sub distribution circuit. Also should be appropriately labelled.

 

[spark 68]

The way I read it, is the panel should not be RCD protected, but the cable supplying it may need to be, if it is buried in the wall/plaster => 50mm etc.. etc..

There are ways around this, surface mount the cable, the cable is in trunking (SM again), has an earthed metalic sheath etc... etc.. Ad nauseum

Don't you just love the wording of the regs.

Edit: as Rise above ^^ , should be on a dedicated circuit.

 

[Guest55]

Its best that it isnt rcd'd but if the cable is buried , then dedicated rcbo , not rcd shared with other circuits.

 

[RISElectrical]

[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]"The circuit supplying the fire alarm system should not be protected by an RCD unless this is necessary to comply with the requirements of BS 7671. Where an RCD is necessary for electrical safety, a fault on any other circuit or equipment in the building should not be capable of resulting in isolation of the supply to the fire alarm system." [/FONT]

I'd still always try and avoid RCD if possible, either by routing of cable or by 1 of the other loopholes

 

[Jay Sparks]

Should not be RCD protected IMO and should be a dedicated supply from the origin of supply... I.e. from db1 and not from a sub distribution circuit. Also should be appropriately labelled.

It is on its own dedicated circuit, from a 3 phase board, origin of supply and correctly labled. The only fire stuff I tend to do is first fix, so never bother with the actual panel, we normally leave that to the experts. I sort of knew it should not be protected by RCD but how can I argue with a guy that has been doing these installs for over ten years. But then again, he didnt even know the correct regs!! lol


Jay

 

[Strima]

At a guess the building is supervised so there fore there should be no one running round drilling holes into walls without permission. However without knowing the building and the installation I would hate to hazard a guess. Only takes one resident with a bit of dementia and a hammer to do some damage.

Before you all start slagging me off, one of my nans had dementia and we had to keep her away from tools as she tried to rewire the kettle whilst it was still plugged in... Rum sauce at Xmas was excellent as she kept forgetting she'd put the booze in... :stuart:

 

[Jay Sparks]

At a guess the building is supervised so there fore there should be no one running round drilling holes into walls without permission. However without knowing the building and the installation I would hate to hazard a guess. Only takes one resident with a bit of dementia and a hammer to do some damage.

Before you all start slagging me off, one of my nans had dementia and we had to keep her away from tools as she tried to rewire the kettle whilst it was still plugged in... Rum sauce at Xmas was excellent as she kept forgetting she'd put the booze in... :stuart:

We have a home full of dementia patients but as soon as I see one with a hammer, Im off!!!! lol

Seriousley though, most of the resisdents dont move, so no danger there. The only hammers are in my office (locked away).
The feed is run about 3/4 meters buried in wall in t & e. Now I know this is wrong, it should be in FP200 etc but the original install is old. The board they have replced (i kept) is from 1991.

Jay

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sounds like the installation is under the control of a skilled or instructed person.
As such the exception for providing RCD protection to cables concealled in walls is applicable.
No requirement for RCD protection.

 

[Brightspark2]

We have a home full of dementia patients but as soon as I see one with a hammer, Im off!!!! lol

Seriousley though, most of the resisdents dont move, so no danger there. The only hammers are in my office (locked away).
The feed is run about 3/4 meters buried in wall in t & e. Now I know this is wrong, it should be in FP200 etc but the original install is old. The board they have replced (i kept) is from 1991.

Jay

The supply doesnt need to be in fire rated cable....

 

[Jay Sparks]

The supply doesnt need to be in fire rated cable....[/QUOTE

This is what the engineer told me. He said it should be fp etc. But he then just shrugged his shoulders.




Jay

 

[needasparks]

This is what the eca say about it.

Dedicated circuits are required for Grades A, Band C systems, and BS5839- 1
systems, so the use of an RCD is not allowed. With the introduction of the 17th
Edition of BS 7671 lEE Wiring Regulations, all new dwellings may be required to
have RCD protection. Where Grade D smoke alarms are supplied from a frequently
used lighting circuit, it is likely that, by default, this will be provided with
an RCD unit. Grade E systems cannot be connection via an RCD. Now new and
altered domestic installations, which include fire systems, will be required to
have 30mA RCD protection throughout.

 

[telectrix]

typical eca suit speak. clear as mud.

 

[needasparks]

typical eca suit speak. clear as mud.

Know what you mean, I'm with NIC and they are no better.