First EICR

[Tidy Max]

Alright chaps,

Started doing and EICR last night just to get some practice in, the house i'm doing it on will eventually be used as one of the assessments for NICEIC or whoever i end up choosing. Not to mention the horrendous state the house is in (and i mean horrendous) i've come across a few things that i don't fully understand.

There are 2 32A breakers (its an old wylex rewireable board fitted with MCBs) each feeding a 4mm.

One of the 4mms appears not be connected to anything, and the other... appears to be connected to pretty much everything! various sockets in different rooms, a couple of lighting circuits etc. At every socket there is a single 2.5 t + e. I have NO ACCESS to under the floors, due to an abundance of terracotta tiles and laminate flooring.

I know alot of people use a 4mm radial nowadays, but did people used to wire a 4mm to a single JB then just spur out left right and center from it??

Also there is no BONDING, at all, no main bonding or supplementary throughout the installation, the incoming gas and water are in the cellar and the CU is on the ground floor? Where do you stand on changing the CU when there is a complete lack of bonding? I got up to page 7 of the CU changes and YOU before nodding off on the sofa last night and a big thanks goes out to JASON for all the info in there. Also to MURDOCH and AMBERLEAF as i find there posts very useful.

I'l post my EICR once i'm finished but chances are it won't be today. Hope everyone has a good weekend and that you don't mind assisting, i imagine there will be a quite a few more questions to come...

Max

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Any size conductor can be used to wire a Radial circuit, as long is it is provided with appropriate protection.
32A for 4mm², as long as installation methods do not reduce the CCC of the 4mm² is quite acceptable.
As for the earthing and bonding arrangements, they have to be adequate for the protective measure you intend to apply when making you alteration or addition.
To my mind this would allow you to leave undersized earthing and bonding conductors, but would not allow you to leave the installation without any (if required).
Any new conductors would obviously have to comply.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I have seen rings wired in various forms over the years and one was you would wire it as a conventional ring but instead of going into the sockets it would terminate into junction boxes at each point, and then a single cable from the JB into the socket. It was felt that it saved cable, it was easier to terminate in the socket, and easier to cut the wall.

I have seen lighting circuits wired as you say, affectionately known as the "spider" or "octopus" method, but never sockets, but I guess if you do this game long enough you will see almost everything.

As for everything wired off this one radial, then unless they have wired the lights in 4mm also, which I guess they haven't then it's against the regulations, and all the preceding regulations and so should be coded. This is before you go down the road of division of the installation, which is also an older regulation.

As for the bonding and the CU change well you will need to do it if you wish to adhere to the current regulations. Where you actually fit the bonding is open to more interpretation as the 600mm is open, but before a branch isn't.

I guess in all honesty you could change the existing CU, and argue that your leaving the installation safer by fitting RCD protection rather than those adapted MCBs, and omit the bonding under existing installation, but try and look at a way round it rather than a way out of it

 

[Tidy Max]

At every socket there is a single 2.5 t + e. I have NO ACCESS to under the floors, due to an abundance of terracotta tiles and laminate flooring.

Thanks for the reply, my concern is that it leaves the CU as a 4mm, and arrives at each socket as a single 2.5, so i have a 32A feeding 2.5s.

In terms of the bonding there is non at all, if i am unable to leave the installation without any do you just isolate the install and condemn it to the client if they refuse to have the work done? Without ripping the ceiling down/pulling tiles up there is noway of getting a bonding conductor to the main incoming services but i fully appreciate you can't leave it without!

 

[Tidy Max]

Cheers Malcolm i should of mentioned you in the OP as i've found alot of your threads informative. I will post up more about the installation later when i get time but its an odd one. I have very limited domestic experience (thus the EICRs, and CU changes being done for free) but my god did i pick a bad one to do! One of the circuits feeds a single socket in the front bed room, and then the sockets at the other end of the house on the ground floor?

I will be making this installation as safe as i possibly can however i don't think i will be using it for my assessment!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Have a read of section 433.2.2 and 434.2 regarding the drop in CSA, and then you can make your judgement.

As for switching off the installation, you do not have that authority and so can not do that. What you can do is advise your client what needs to be done and why it needs to be done.

 

[Octopus]

a big thanks goes out to JASON for all the info in there. Also to MURDOCH and AMBERLEAF as i find there posts very useful.

Max

That's a nice bit of feedback Max, and its appreciated by me and I'm guessing the others too.

This forum has helped me a lot over the last couple of years and I realise that as I "take" information it's my duty to put it back too.

Remember an EICR is assessment of the "state" of the installation, not a quoting exercise for remedial works.

 

[Tidy Max]

I appreciate its an assessment and not a quoting/certification exercise. I hadn't fully explained myself in the original post, its my mums old property which she will eventually be letting, so i thought i could do an EICR and get things in order to use as an assessment so although i'm only at the EICR stage i'm trying to take all options into account.

Also, there will be ZERO monetary gain from this work too lol

Anyway, my schedule of results:
1 Incorrect MCB rating for cable size C2
2 No earth sleeving at the majority of fittings C2
3 Damaged socket front c2
4 Insufficient cable support - fire place c2
5 No gromits used on metal back boxes c2
6 No main bonding c2
7 Poor terminations, loose live conductors in terminals (fittings)c2 Section 526
8 No CPC continuity on lighting circuit c2 411.3.1 543.1
9 No labelling c2
10 Non sheathed cable c2 521.10.1
11 Main incomer inaccessible c3 132.12 513.1 (I realise DNO equipment is there own property but the regs states that you should inspect it on an EICR and notify if anything is awry, surely this should also be noted on the EICR effectively as proof that you have acknowledged the issue?)
12 No main isolator
13 Incorrect main earth size

I have not fully completed the EICR yet but i will be doing some very thorough belling out of cables tomorrow, i've attempted to draw a map of the install but tbh that has proved impossible, i'm yet to find 2 ends of the same cable

Fig 15B (page 426) states that you can actually run a 2.5mm unfused spur off a 4mm supplied by a 32a MCB providing only one spur is run, which actually in this case may mean the install isn't as bad as i had initially thought, its just a shame i can't locate the JB's. Which on that note, there must be junctions boxes and IIRC junction boxes aren't classed as MF are they? So maybe that should be noted as an observation? Or maybe not because its an assumption not an observation?

Anyway i'm rambling.

Thanks for the replies they are seriously appreciated.

Max

 

[Octopus]

I appreciate its an assessment and not a quoting/certification exercise. I hadn't fully explained myself in the original post, its my mums old property which she will eventually be letting, so i thought i could do an EICR and get things in order to use as an assessment so although i'm only at the EICR stage i'm trying to take all options into account.

Also, there will be ZERO monetary gain from this work too lol

Anyway, my schedule of results:
1 Incorrect MCB rating for cable size C2
2 No earth sleeving at the majority of fittings C3
3 Damaged socket front c2
4 Insufficient cable support - fire place c2
5 No gromits used on metal back boxes C3
6 No main bonding c2
7 Poor terminations, loose live conductors in terminals (fittings)c2 Section 526
8 No CPC continuity on lighting circuit C3 411.3.1 543.1
9 No labelling C3
10 Non sheathed cable c2 521.10.1
11 Main incomer inaccessible c3 132.12 513.1 (I realise DNO equipment is there own property but the regs states that you should inspect it on an EICR and notify if anything is awry, surely this should also be noted on the EICR effectively as proof that you have acknowledged the issue?)
12 No main isolator C2?
13 Incorrect main earth size - what size is it?

I have not fully completed the EICR yet but i will be doing some very thorough belling out of cables tomorrow, i've attempted to draw a map of the install but tbh that has proved impossible, i'm yet to find 2 ends of the same cable

Fig 15B (page 426) states that you can actually run a 2.5mm unfused spur off a 4mm supplied by a 32a MCB providing only one spur is run, which actually in this case may mean the install isn't as bad as i had initially thought, its just a shame i can't locate the JB's. Which on that note, there must be junctions boxes and IIRC junction boxes aren't classed as MF are they? So maybe that should be noted as an observation? Or maybe not because its an assumption not an observation?

Anyway i'm rambling.

Thanks for the replies they are seriously appreciated.

Max

See above in red. other may disagree!

 

[Guest55]

.. other may disagree!

well , as you mention it lol.
no cpc cont. for lighting - C2 if class 1 fittings.
no main isolator ?? has the CU got no switch ?

 

[Tidy Max]

Yes the CU has a main switch, but i thought you also had an isolator, the main switch is single pole, the main isolator would be double pole to disconnect both tails at the same time to allow changing of the CU.

Luckily for me the seals fell off the cut out when i opened the CU door, so it wasn't an issue. However i will fit an isolator so when the DNO come out to reseal the cutout i can still totally isolate the consumer side

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[richy3333]

Tidy Max - there's no requirement to have an isolator fitted between the DNO fuse and the CU. Helpful, but not essential. Are you sure the main CU switch is not DP?

 

[Tidy Max]

on the original wylex it wasn't, but it is on the crabtree

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