Greg Barkers Tweet. RHI

[Greenday]

Greg has tweeted! How many think it will be fully functional when launched.

@GregBarkerMP: Domestic #RHI done, dusted & all signed into law and ready to launch before Easter! Thanks to everyone who helped make this happen. #Growth

 

[JulianC]

#bellend

 

[JulianC]

(That's directed at Barking by the way, not you Greenday. I quite like your music :crazy: )

 

[Greenday]

I was wondering what I'd said to upset you!

He's in Birmingham on Friday at a panel manufacturer called Sunsolar Energy Ltd if you would like to abuse him personally!

 

[solarsavings]

if you would like to abuse him personally!

Perish the thought.

 

[Gavin A]

I was wondering what I'd said to upset you!

He's in Birmingham on Friday at a panel manufacturer called Sunsolar Energy Ltd if you would like to abuse him personally!

be warned, he bounces around like tigger on speed, has a few quick words then bounces off before you get chance to gather your thoughts, or in my case be entirely sure about who it is that's come bouncing over to talk with you.


Probably quite a cunning tactic for avoiding any potential abuse.

 

[Worcester]

Had long chats recently with the guys behind the delivery of it at DECC and Ofgem - they are ready to go when Barking pushes the switch.

Just bear mind that just because a product is on the MCS list, or a system has been certifed under MCS, it DOES NOT MEAN it will qualify for RHI!! That is going to catch a bunch of people out. - Some Heat Pumps and some Biomass boilers may have qualified for the RHPP, they won;t get the RHI though because of either the prodcut or the installation, also a shed load of solar thermal installations won't qualify either.

 

[Worcester]

As for fully functional, I've read the document and it's all there, although inconsistent with best installation design in a few instances.

They are aware about this and a revision / consultation process is already scheduled for late summer to pick up those anomolies.

e.g:
1) Bi-valency, if you use a biomass boiler as the bi-valent part of a heat pump installation, no RHI for the biomass, so still encouraging fossil based oil/lpg for that part. - nonsense!
2)Solar thermal: if it goes into a thermal store, or the excess is used to heat a pool, then the whole solar thermal system doesn't qualify for the RHI so no payment at all..

 

[Gavin A]

Had long chats recently with the guys behind the delivery of it at DECC and Ofgem - they are ready to go when Barking pushes the switch.

Just bear mind that just because a product is on the MCS list, or a system has been certifed under MCS, it DOES NOT MEAN it will qualify for RHI!! That is going to catch a bunch of people out. - Some Heat Pumps and some Biomass boilers may have qualified for the RHPP, they won;t get the RHI though because of either the prodcut or the installation, also a shed load of solar thermal installations won't qualify either.

how come? I was under the impression that older systems would have grandfather rights to it as long as they met the MCS standards at the time of the installation.

 

[Gavin A]

ps The bit about not needing to install 4 x extra valves on solar thermal systems to be meter ready, as you do with the other technologies.... that was my suggestion after I pointed out the increased leak potential and associated costs involved in having multiple compression fittings in close proximity on the same pipe, plus the difficulty with achieving this in an airing cupboard, and the question of who was going to be liable if it leaks or gets and air lock in it after a meter is fitted.

I was fairly surprised to see the suggestion actually made it through, but I must have made the case convincingly enough to the right person at the right time.

Apparently I was the first person to have mentioned these practical issues......

 

[Worcester]

how come? I was under the impression that older systems would have grandfather rights to it as long as they met the MCS standards at the time of the installation.

They got very strict over the NOx and particles over biomass as that apparently was non-compliant with EU stuff so it caused all kinds of challenges on the commercial RHI for biomass, with a lot of boilers that were being installed going to be non-compliant with the requirements.

From September 24th 2013, all RHI eligible biomass boilers, even those that already comply with the Clean Air Act , will also have to comply with emission limits even more restrictive than are currently required in towns , i.e. in ‘Smokeless Zones ‘ . RHI dust and NOx testing and certification procedures have been established, and RHI will only be paid to boilers that are certified to meet the RHI Emission Standards.

EVEN IF THEY WERE MCS CERTIFIED PRODUCTS

DECC have made it perfectly clear that they will not be bound by MCS requirements as the MCS is NOT a government body, and as such they will not be told what to do by a non government organisation, and if someone wants to set up an equivalent scheme they are very welcome to do so. DECC will through legislation and regulation set the requirements for MCS to follow. - Hence a 6 page concise DECC document on metering gets turned into a 30 page confusing epistle by MCS. However it seems that even then some people can't read a specification, of the sites with meters installed over 75% of them were non-compliant.

 

[Worcester]

ps The bit about not needing to install 4 x extra valves on solar thermal systems to be meter ready, as you do with the other technologies.... that was my suggestion

It'll be your fault that they wont be eligible if installed to thermal stores and use swimming pools as the overheat buffer then

 

[TedM]

From September 24th 2013, all RHI eligible biomass boilers, even those that already comply with the Clean Air Act , will also have to comply with emission limits even more restrictive than are currently required in towns , i.e. in ‘Smokeless Zones ‘ . RHI dust and NOx testing and certification procedures have been established, and RHI will only be paid to boilers that are certified to meet the RHI Emission Standards.

Gordon, where does this quote come from? Is it DECC? And does it apply to the domestic RHI or non-domestic?

 

[Worcester]

Came from Ofgem, applied to all Commercial RHI. They relaxed it and didn't apply it to systems already registered with ofgem, however EVERY commercial plant commissioned after 24th Sept had to have it.

The implementation of this meant that some domestic biomass boilers can't / won't get that certificate, which means that some boilers CURRENTLY on the MCS register, wont be eligible if commissioned AFTER the scheme launches.

This is what DECC issued :

What are the new air quality requirements ?
If you are applying for the RHI on or after 24 September 2013 with a biomass boiler (including CHP systems), your boiler must have either a RHI emission certificate or an environmental permit. The purpose of this requirement is to ensure that emissions from biomass boilers do not exceed a maximum level of particulate matter (PM) and oxides of nitrogen (NO x ) . For RHI emission certificates, the maximum permitted emissions are 30 grams per gigajoule (g/GJ) net heat input for PM and 150 g/GJ for NO x (expressed as NO 2 ) . Environmental permits also normally include emissions limits however these vary depending on the boiler in question. Biomass boilers that do not have a RHI emission certificate or an environmental permit will be ineligible for the RHI.
When do the new air quality requirements apply from ?
The air quality requirements apply to applications made after the date the regulations come in to force which is planned to be 24th September 2013 .
Who do the new air quality requirements apply to?
The air quality requirements apply to you if your application for the RHI was submitted on or after 24th September 2013. If you were a participant in the RHI before 24th September 2013 and you apply for additional capacity for your boiler on or after 24th September 2013 , your boiler’s additional capacity will also need to meet the air quality requirements
...

What about the domestic RHI?
The domestic RHI scheme, due to launch in spring 2014, will introduce air quality requirements similar to those set out in this factsheet for new applicants. Further information specifically relating to the domestic scheme will be published before the launch of the scheme.

What caught people out was the speed of implementation, - as it was required by some kind of EU regulation (and overlooked / missed by DECC/Ofgem) they applied it as soon as they could, which meant (due to the timescales to sell, negotiate, install, commission etc commercial biomass systems) that a lot of projects had to do remedial works to qualify or the boilers were withdrawn from the market place.

It would appear that domestic legacy systems - i.e those COMMISSIONED (and MCS regsitered) before the official DRHI launch date should be OK, though we have only installed ones with the certificates since September to be doubly sure, hence there will be a rush to register legacy biomass systems on the MCS database. What it has meant is a rush to sell / shift / install / commission boilers that would be non-compliant if installed later. We're seeing some installs of a quality similar to the PV charade in November 2011.

 

[Gavin A]

It'll be your fault that they wont be eligible if installed to thermal stores and use swimming pools as the overheat buffer then

not guilty, that's a DECC thing, I managed to get the MCS document tweaked slightly on a technical point, which I didn't think was bad considering I'm not actually on that steering group, and didn't even attend a meeting about it

I raised the same objections re swimming pools and solar for space heating, and I think there's an understanding that these issues will need addressing, but nobody wanted to delay RHI any further by attempting to change this before the launch. Basically RHI is what it is for now,but there's a hope / expectation that some of these issues will be picked up and addressed at the first review of the RHI / MCS documents. Better a flawed scheme launched now than waiting another year for perfection or something like that.... and after 4 years of waiting, I can understand that point of view.