Hairdressers

[Bane]

I think you own MazdaMan, Shakey.

"Hopefully you will have read the posts, and I can assure you, you are (in my experience) in an extremelly small minority with your point of view (as in a minority of one)"

^^^^^^^^^
VERY FUNNY

 

[rumrunner]

HERES SOME BULLETS FOR THE GUN YOURE LOADING ,BANE

 

[mazdaman]

Ok Shakey I accept your apology, let’s shake hands and move on and work together.

I have noted your quotes re the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'
You refer to Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

I must have a different copy than you because on mine its on page 25, section 5.4. and reads as follows:

‘THE SCOPE OF PART P

Examples of the application of Part P include electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:
Dwelling houses and flats
Dwellings and business premises that have a common supply – for example shops and public houses with a flat above:

Yes that’s right mine says ‘common supply’ not ‘common metering’.
I think between us we may have found the route cause of confusion, a misprint in one of the publications. I assume the misprint is in your copy because mine corresponds to the part P approved document as you have confirmed says ‘common supply’.

I assume you have the green book. The one I have is white and is a joint publication between the NICEIC and the ECA endorsed by the DSA and LABC

Perhaps Mr Access Training can check this out if you have copies of both publications and anyone else on here that has a copy of either book.
Your write Mr Training this is getting interesting, but I still stand by my comments that the supply is the cable not the meter.

Confusion here is that the meter is the demarcation point between the supplier and the installation and may be regarded as the ‘point of supply’. In fact the definition from the Electricity Supply Regulations is ‘supply terminals’ but not ‘supply’.

I have other examples I could explain but before we go any further lets clarify if there is a misprint in either publication as I have mentioned above.

Anyone got the Electrical Installers Guide to the Building Regulations? Would appreciate what comment yours reads, ‘common metering’ or ‘common supply’, under the heading The Scope of Part P. Please indicate which book/ publisher.

 

[rumrunner]

Part P applies to electrical installations in buildings comprising:​

.

dwelling houses and flats

​

. ​

​

dwellings and business premises that have a common supply . for example shops and public

houses that have a shop above;
​

​

​

. ​

​

common access areas in blocks of flats such as corridors and staircases;

​

. ​

​

shared amenities of blocks of flats such as laundries and gymnasiums.

Part P applies also to parts of the above electrical installations:
​

​

​

. ​

​

in or on land associated with the buildings . for example Part P applies to fixed lighting and pond

pumps in gardens;​

. in outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and greenhouses.

Amicus Technical Bulletin November 2004​

AMICUS technical bullitin 2004,
.....................................................................................................................
as you can see my version says this ,hope that doesnt confuse things to much.
for some reason this didnt paste quite right but i have the whole amicus document on pdf,but i does say common supply.

​

 

[Shakey]

Ok Shakey I accept your apology, let’s shake hands and move on and work together.

I have noted your quotes re the 'Electricians Guide to the Building Regulations'
You refer to Page 15 para 1.3.2 Scope of Part P

I must have a different copy than you because on mine its on page 25, section 5.4. and reads as follows:

‘THE SCOPE OF PART P

Examples of the application of Part P include electrical installations in buildings or parts of buildings comprising:
Dwelling houses and flats
Dwellings and business premises that have a common supply – for example shops and public houses with a flat above:

Yes that’s right mine says ‘common supply’ not ‘common metering’.
I think between us we may have found the route cause of confusion, a misprint in one of the publications. I assume the misprint is in your copy because mine corresponds to the part P approved document as you have confirmed says ‘common supply’.

I assume you have the green book. The one I have is white and is a joint publication between the NICEIC and the ECA endorsed by the DSA and LABC

Perhaps Mr Access Training can check this out if you have copies of both publications and anyone else on here that has a copy of either book.
Your write Mr Training this is getting interesting, but I still stand by my comments that the supply is the cable not the meter.

Confusion here is that the meter is the demarcation point between the supplier and the installation and may be regarded as the ‘point of supply’. In fact the definition from the Electricity Supply Regulations is ‘supply terminals’ but not ‘supply’.

I have other examples I could explain but before we go any further lets clarify if there is a misprint in either publication as I have mentioned above.

Anyone got the Electrical Installers Guide to the Building Regulations? Would appreciate what comment yours reads, ‘common metering’ or ‘common supply’, under the heading The Scope of Part P. Please indicate which book/ publisher.

Ok, glad we are moving on

I think the book you have is a different book

The IEE's Electrcian's Guide to the Building Regs has, and always has had, a green cover.

the problem is many of the documents refer to 'common supply', do you have any that sepcifically refer to 'common service cable'?

My IEE book has 5 VERY clear diagrams, to avoid any confusion

On each diagram they specifically label the source of electricity supplly, the electricity supply meter, and the intake switchgear

Interestingly, four of the diagrams are shop/ flat type examples, and the meter is FIRST, then the 'Source of electricity supply' is next. The remaining diagram is of a block of flats, then its

Intake switch gear - then source of electricity supply then meter IN EACH FLAT

in each diagram they clearly show that if there is one 'service cable' but seperate meters, thren each metered supply is shown as coming under Part P in its own right. Indeed, in the flats example, there is a business unit on the ground floor, which is NOT under Part P, despite being on the same 'service cable' as the rest of the building - which completely follws Access Training's argument

these other diagrams clearly show one meter, both under Part P, seperate meters Business not Part P, dwelling is Part P

I honestly believe that the intention is always the meter, and the examples used by Access Training clearly show that this is the only way it could practically work.

Those documents that state 'common supply' are, to me, following the IEE's lead in that the supply is specifically TO THE BUSINESS/DWELLING CONCERNED, ie AFTER the meter.

If you can find anything conclusive that differentiates, in writing, that they are specifically referring to the service cable, then please, I need to see it (so would i suspect the IEE and every other electrician I have ever discussed this with)

Also, as a tutor on the EAL DEI course, which includes module 001 - Applicable Building Regs for Electrical Installations, if you are correct, I would have a great many students to contact!!!

 

[wayne]

while this topic barely touches upon anything i deal with ,its good to read and informative ,
cheers

 

[mazdaman]

Shakey, lets look as some examples from your perspective.

Scenario

You are saying that the number of meters equals the number of supplies.

Let move away from Part P for a moment and look at some examples of what you are saying.

1. A factory has a 3-phase motor and there are 3 separate meters one per phase. You are saying that the premises have 3 supplies? If the three meters are replaced by one poly-phase (3-phase) meter then the number of supplies has been reduced to one.

2. What would you define as the supply if you had an un-metered installation??? i.e. street lighting, traffic signals and signs, remote and underground water authority pumping stations where these installations are on a fixed load tariff?
Your definition is that it would not have a supply as there is no meter!

Getting back to Part P

3. A landlord has premises with 3-phase, one phase feeds a business and the other two feed two flats. Each phase has its own meter. The business is outside the scope of part P because it is metered separately from the flats. Electrical work is carried out on the business by a non registered part P electrician. Some time later the landlord decides to install his own private meters to his tenants and instructs the electricity company to replace the 3 separate meters to one poly-phase, (3-phase) meter. Building work is planed for the premises and a LABC officer visits’ the site and notices that electrical work has been carried out on the business and sees that it has one meter. Oh dear, I would not like to be in that electricians shoes!! So Shakley how would you explain this situation to the LABC officer???

4. If a domestic dwelling has two meters, one for ‘normal’ and one ‘off peak’, your definition is that it has two supplies.

A bit more closely to home now

The electrical certificate that we all fill in, or should do, there is a section with the heading ‘Supply characteristics’’ where the type of supply has to be identified and recorded. Ie , TN-S, TN-C-S, TT. The main fuse rating and type. No reference is made or recorded with respect to the meters. That’s because the meters have no significant to the installation or the supply. If they did the meter type /number of meters would be recorded. The meter in fact is the only part of the installation and supply details NOT to be recorded on the certificate. That’s because it is irrelevant and transparent to both the supply and installation. Its only purpose is for billing.

You are taking to much notice of the guide book which we have determined has miss printed text. It is only a guide after all and any publication can have mistakes even from the IET formally IEE. Look at how many amendments there are following publication the wiring regulations, rephrasing because of misunderstanding. Part P is new and there are likely to be more teething problems and errors than if it had been published several years ago.

And finally, throw that book away it has been withdrawn as it is now a withdrawn standard. See below.

BIP 2082:2005 - WITHDRAWN

Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations. Including approved Document P: Electrical Safety in Dwellings
Categories:
Electricity supply systems

WARNING: This is a WITHDRAWN standard
Please click here to view more information about withdrawn standards​

BSi code: BIP 2082:2005
ISBN number: 0 86341 463 X
Product code: 30132400
Publication Date: 1st Mar 2005

I told you so. I hope the penny has dropped shakey and the rest.

Shakey and Bane I might be the minority as you both commented and you should both be politicians as they rely on votes. I am an electrical engineer and I count on facts, feasibility and above all common sense. By the way Bane, does Shakey own me now????

 

[Shakey]

Shakey, lets look as some examples from your perspective.

Scenario

You are saying that the number of meters equals the number of supplies.

Let move away from Part P for a moment and look at some examples of what you are saying.

1. A factory has a 3-phase motor and there are 3 separate meters one per phase. You are saying that the premises have 3 supplies? If the three meters are replaced by one poly-phase (3-phase) meter then the number of supplies has been reduced to one.

2. What would you define as the supply if you had an un-metered installation??? i.e. street lighting, traffic signals and signs, remote and underground water authority pumping stations where these installations are on a fixed load tariff?
Your definition is that it would not have a supply as there is no meter!

Getting back to Part P

3. A landlord has premises with 3-phase, one phase feeds a business and the other two feed two flats. Each phase has its own meter. The business is outside the scope of part P because it is metered separately from the flats. Electrical work is carried out on the business by a non registered part P electrician. Some time later the landlord decides to install his own private meters to his tenants and instructs the electricity company to replace the 3 separate meters to one poly-phase, (3-phase) meter. Building work is planed for the premises and a LABC officer visits’ the site and notices that electrical work has been carried out on the business and sees that it has one meter. Oh dear, I would not like to be in that electricians shoes!! So Shakley how would you explain this situation to the LABC officer???

4. If a domestic dwelling has two meters, one for ‘normal’ and one ‘off peak’, your definition is that it has two supplies.

A bit more closely to home now

The electrical certificate that we all fill in, or should do, there is a section with the heading ‘Supply characteristics’’ where the type of supply has to be identified and recorded. Ie , TN-S, TN-C-S, TT. The main fuse rating and type. No reference is made or recorded with respect to the meters. That’s because the meters have no significant to the installation or the supply. If they did the meter type /number of meters would be recorded. The meter in fact is the only part of the installation and supply details NOT to be recorded on the certificate. That’s because it is irrelevant and transparent to both the supply and installation. Its only purpose is for billing.

You are taking to much notice of the guide book which we have determined has miss printed text. It is only a guide after all and any publication can have mistakes even from the IET formally IEE. Look at how many amendments there are following publication the wiring regulations, rephrasing because of misunderstanding. Part P is new and there are likely to be more teething problems and errors than if it had been published several years ago.

And finally, throw that book away it has been withdrawn as it is now a withdrawn standard. See below.

BIP 2082:2005 - WITHDRAWN

Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations. Including approved Document P: Electrical Safety in Dwellings
Categories:
Electricity supply systems

WARNING: This is a WITHDRAWN standard
Please click here to view more information about withdrawn standards​

BSi code: BIP 2082:2005
ISBN number: 0 86341 463 X
Product code: 30132400
Publication Date: 1st Mar 2005

I told you so. I hope the penny has dropped shakey and the rest.

Shakey and Bane I might be the minority as you both commented and you should both be politicians as they rely on votes. I am an electrical engineer and I count on facts, feasibility and above all common sense. By the way Bane, does Shakey own me now????

Mazdaman

when did we establish there has been a misprint in the book? The book I have is very clear, did they 'misprint' the diagrams as well?

Of course the supply is what is coming in, but we are determining what the supply is quite specifiaclly for determining the boundaries and remit of Part P

And for everytime you stated "your defenition", please replace with "most electricians defintions, including the IEE/IET)

and of course we can all find holes in each others argument - but it is about Part P, and as your examples 1 & 2 are clearly outside of Part P, they are ireelevent to this discussion

dont see your reasoning with example 3

when the work was carried out 'MY' reasoning applied and the business was not under Part P

the fact that changing of the metering may/or may not bring it under Part P in the future is ireelevent.

Thats like saying "yes you complied with the 16th edition, but what happens when the 17th comes in"

and as we know, the the rules regulations in foce 'on the day' are what counts, not any future changes

and the 'guide book', written by the same people that wrote the regs that we all follow, really my friend, you are clearly set on your path.

I dont think ANYTHING could convince you otherwise

i have still not seen any document that backs up your theory, but I have shown a document that clearly backs up mine

If you just stand there and say 'yes but its a missprint, its wrong', then really, there is nothing more to say

Bottom line is, sparks does work on a pub, on seperate meter to flat above. Like every sparks I have met, he would say its not under Part P. So LABC come out because of the general building work, and tell the spark it DOES come under part p because its on a common 'service cable'.

Has this ever happened. EVER? Somehow, I dont think so

Stay as you are my friend, its your position, and your entitiled to it

think you will be lonely though.........

 

[rumrunner]

Bottom line is, sparks does work on a pub, on seperate meter to flat above. Like every sparks I have met, he would say its not under Part P. So LABC come out because of the general building work, and tell the spark it DOES come under part p because its on a common 'service cable'.

Shakey if the above has a common supply (ie cable) not meter ,but a common supply then it will come under part p, same for a shop. that bit is quite clear.

its all bull though just do what you like, everyone ,sod the regs ,i think ill start a feedom from the sh~t campaign.

 

[Shakey]

Bottom line is, sparks does work on a pub, on seperate meter to flat above. Like every sparks I have met, he would say its not under Part P. So LABC come out because of the general building work, and tell the spark it DOES come under part p because its on a common 'service cable'.

Shakey if the above has a common supply (ie cable) not meter ,but a common supply then it will come under part p, same for a shop. that bit is quite clear.

its all bull though just do what you like, everyone ,sod the regs ,i think ill start a feedom from the sh~t campaign.

No Rum, it isnt quite clear at all

they may be on a common service cable ( and they may not), but for Part P purposes the 'supply' is what the individual part of the bulidng recieves AFTEr the meter

so seperate meters, (regardless of common or individual service cables), businees not under Part P, flat is

and yes, its all crap, 'cos none of this has ANYTHING to do with BS7671!

 

[mazdaman]

Shakey we didn't confirm any printing mistake in the book. I was assuming, as my book , which hasn't been withdrawn, and says 'common supply' the same as the Part P approved document and same as rumrunner. As for definitions which have been round the electricity industry for many years, you can't change the term 'supply' or any other definition between installations for the sake of Part P. I am not saying that the inspector will say 'common service cable' I was referring in earlier comment that the 'common supply' refers to the supply to the premise, ie service cable. The meter is the demarcation point as you have rightly said but are the 'supply terminals' not ‘supply’ as per electricity supply regulations'. See below.
If the document said ‘common terminals’ you would be correct as this is the meter and point of delivery to consumer.

Definitions from supply regulations



'supply' means supply with energy to premises other than those on which it was generated.


"supply terminals" means the ends of the electric lines situated upon any consumer's premises at which the supply is delivered and, unless otherwise agreed in writing, where a meter is employed to register the value of the supply and is directly connected to those lines, means the terminals of that meter furthest from the installation of the owner of that meter;


I think we will see a lot of changes and amendments to part P because it does cause a lot of confusion even to LABC inspectors.


We'll have to a agree to disagree on this one Shakey, but I do agree with you and rumrunner that it's all crap and there are improvements required by the rule makers to iron out much of the confusion that part P has caused.

 

[rumrunner]

Yeah ,might as well let Bane write the rules, at least they would be more fun to read.

 

[Shakey]

Shakey we didn't confirm any printing mistake in the book. I was assuming, as my book , which hasn't been withdrawn, and says 'common supply' the same as the Part P approved document and same as rumrunner. As for definitions which have been round the electricity industry for many years, you can't change the term 'supply' or any other definition between installations for the sake of Part P. I am not saying that the inspector will say 'common service cable' I was referring in earlier comment that the 'common supply' refers to the supply to the premise, ie service cable. The meter is the demarcation point as you have rightly said but are the 'supply terminals' not ‘supply’ as per electricity supply regulations'. See below.
If the document said ‘common terminals’ you would be correct as this is the meter and point of delivery to consumer.

Definitions from supply regulations



'supply' means supply with energy to premises other than those on which it was generated.


"supply terminals" means the ends of the electric lines situated upon any consumer's premises at which the supply is delivered and, unless otherwise agreed in writing, where a meter is employed to register the value of the supply and is directly connected to those lines, means the terminals of that meter furthest from the installation of the owner of that meter;


I think we will see a lot of changes and amendments to part P because it does cause a lot of confusion even to LABC inspectors.


We'll have to a agree to disagree on this one Shakey, but I do agree with you and rumrunner that it's all crap and there are improvements required by the rule makers to iron out much of the confusion that part P has caused.

well said Mazdaman

If we, the people at the coal face, experienced and qualified engineers, cannot agree on the interpretation of the available documents, then what chance has the non-electrical LABC inspector got?

And we have the advantage, in that if either you or I were to work to our defintions, it would take an LABC with some BIG kahunas to try and over ride us on a technical issue!

 

[Bane]

"Yes Mazdaman. You are still the sole property of one, Mr.Shakey. Except on Tuesdays. When you are mine"

 

[The Electrical Connection]

Agree with Shakey.............do it right or not at all.don't guess...check