heating a swimming pool

[sedgy34]

whats the cheapest efficient way of heating a swimming pool gonna be about 25mtrs/15mtrs
im thinking air source heat pump

 

[Energetic]

indoor or outdoor? Pool used in what seasons? Domestic or commercial? Pool thermally insulated from ground?

Airsource wouldn't touch it in my opinion. Recent EST report saying average COP for UK Air Source is 2.3. Air source would not get RHI in its current setup.

If the pool is for a commercial use it could get an RHI with other tech's. Do they have PV to contribute to the HP's demand?

 

[sedgy34]

It would be an add on to the renewable thread posted

 

[BruceB]

Although I am not a fan of ASHP for domestic because the time you want it to be working hardest is when it is cold, dark and damp, that does not apply to a domestic swimming pool which is likely to want to be heated when the outside air is relatively warm rather than in mid winter. Combine ASHP with a good lot of solar pv and you would be making significant savings over straight electric heating.

 

[sedgy34]

Although I am not a fan of ASHP for domestic because the time you want it to be working hardest is when it is cold, dark and damp, that does not apply to a domestic swimming pool which is likely to want to be heated when the outside air is relatively warm rather than in mid winter. Combine ASHP with a good lot of solar pv and you would be making significant savings over straight electric heating.

yeh i think ive read that before on the forum so would you suggest a grond source heat pump for the indoor pool

 

[sedgy34]

indoor or outdoor? Pool used in what seasons? Domestic or commercial? Pool thermally insulated from ground?

Airsource wouldn't touch it in my opinion. Recent EST report saying average COP for UK Air Source is 2.3. Air source would not get RHI in its current setup.

If the pool is for a commercial use it could get an RHI with other tech's. Do they have PV to contribute to the HP's demand?

its an indoor private swimming pool i know the rhi wouldnt fund towards this

 

[Glen Powell]

Easiest way with best usage of energy between march and september has got to be solar thermal, done loads of them so easy to install as well just need some space for panels but if you got a swimming pool then solar panels should not be an issue. Air Source V Solar panel is COP, solar pump 160w at max, do the Maths. If indoor it can still contribute in the off peak seasons.

 

[amigo4lavida]

A major consideration with an indoor pool is providing sufficient ventilation. This requires adequate heat recovery systems so as not to vent out all your heat.

 

[Earthstore]

yeh i think ive read that before on the forum so would you suggest a grond source heat pump for the indoor pool

Not if it is a retro fit, as the cost of install outweighs the benefit, as to an earlier comment about the RHI (if it ever happens), I believe that is for heating your house, not your swimming pool, of course there may be a loophole.
I have seen many ASHP, on pools and in houses, and if installed and calculated correctly do work very well, and as Bruce posted, link it in with PV.

 

[Glen Powell]

Linking in with PV and taking into account efficiency, i.e if you have a 14-17% efficient panel and say after losses you can average out to 15% overall on the PV, then with an ASHP giving say 4 to 1 ratio you could argue it will work well, however to get 9kwh out of solar water heating you will only require (average) 300wh of electricity so surely solar water heating wins hands down (for an external pool) internal can use a mixture of technologies dependent on the household.

An internal pool is governed by the heat loss within the building, it is cheaper to heat space than water and my advice would be look at cost effective ways to ensure the pool house is at good ambient temperature.

Sorry If I sound a bit forceful but I have designed a large number of pool heating systems which have worked very well, using pv to help is always a consideration but it depends on what is required to help. I am not bias as I do both ASHP and Solar Water Heating. Using solar water heating with an overall efficiency of 75% means you can use the pv to run the pumps, skimmers and filters, not to mention shove a washload on for dirty swimwear and towels

 

[Energetic]

Indoor pools might be able to claim commercial rhi in the case of a holiday complex for example, not for AS but GS and biomass, check with MCS. RHI is available right now for commercial installs, it's just the domestic that is being held back. Most commercial installs are by definition not going to be homes, however more than 1 house will qualify as commercial.

An indoor pool with PV as a backup might be suitable for AS. If you're using pv to power it then the COP isn't hugely important.

What about seasons? If you are running the heating in winter the PV output will not be as high and the AS will have a much lower COP due to ambient temp. This doesn't mean it won't work it will just be less efficient. If you have enough PV then again its not so important.

Solar thermal is a good option for the summer months but again if it's in use all year round then it will struggle in winter.

 

[Glen Powell]

Energetic, you need to be on Linkedin really as you seem to be banging out the commercial aspect of everything (no dig or offence intended) obviously commecial aspect of RHI is beneficial to your business as it is to others on the forum.

It is all down to what is right for the homeowner, technical loopholes are not really up for discussion, the basics are there is a pool that needs heating, what is the most cost effective way to do it, and, In this case lets say RHI is not availible.

Internal Pools still have seasonal usage, however if a home owner tells me otherwise I will look at other forms of heating that will compliment solar pool heating, you will be suprised how many pool owners have wood burning stoves.

Air source is good if it is specified correctly of which a lot are not in the seasons from march to september solar will work well at a very small amount of the running cost of the ASHP however I also do not beleive a ASHP in january can cope with heating a pool as nor can the solar water heating. Regulations are quite specific about ASHP and where they can be sited so you cannot have multiple sources to cope with winter losses.

Commercial pools will probably go for biomass / wood gasification (same thing in a way) as the RHI and REGs cover that easier for the energy required.

 

[sedgy34]

Energetic, you need to be on Linkedin really as you seem to be banging out the commercial aspect of everything (no dig or offence intended) obviously commecial aspect of RHI is beneficial to your business as it is to others on the forum.

It is all down to what is right for the homeowner, technical loopholes are not really up for discussion, the basics are there is a pool that needs heating, what is the most cost effective way to do it, and, In this case lets say RHI is not availible.

Internal Pools still have seasonal usage, however if a home owner tells me otherwise I will look at other forms of heating that will compliment solar pool heating, you will be suprised how many pool owners have wood burning stoves.

Air source is good if it is specified correctly of which a lot are not in the seasons from march to september solar will work well at a very small amount of the running cost of the ASHP however I also do not beleive a ASHP in january can cope with heating a pool as nor can the solar water heating. Regulations are quite specific about ASHP and where they can be sited so you cannot have multiple sources to cope with winter losses.

Commercial pools will probably go for biomass / wood gasification (same thing in a way) as the RHI and REGs cover that easier for the energy required.

Good Debate!!! the client has 13 acres of land on the back of his garden maybe a good pv sytem would offset costs of heating the pool as well as him getting the fit

 

[Glen Powell]

OK a good debate if planning approved he could get it installed for FREE and all the electricity from it for FREE, or he could install it himself take advantage of the ROCs / FITs and heat the pool all year round.

I thought we were talking cheapest solution though, FREE solar is not cheap as you sign away your land, Solar PV not cheap (although considerably better), square meter for square meter of energy generation PV looses. Wind turbine would probably beat solar but capital outlay per kWp is more. ASHP limited slightly by regulations.

Size of building (based on spare land) wood gasification / biomass but only if the client wants to do some work, plug and play I will leave the options open

 

[sedgy34]

no outlay either the carbontrust will outlay 100% on renewables based on 7 years payback its a nobrainer

 

[Gavin A]

If you're going to heat the pool from solar water heating, you defo need to implement it better than the house we've been working on today to reduce their £5k+ a year gas and electric bills.

they've got about 160 tubes of solar water heating installed, but ground mounted, east facing under a load of trees, and installed to the wrong side of the main pool heating unit, with the pump controller set up to run the pump at full power only, and in such a way that the pump was running virtually continuously and actually extracting heat from the pool water as far as I could work out.

 

[Glen Powell]

Holy SHHHHHHH, you get my drift.

Who the hell installed that, that is a real problem and tubes probably shot to hell as heat exchange would not call for power this is why solar themal is given a bad name

 

[Glen Powell]

sorry read it again and realised the tubes are fine as the pump was always on, if you quoting to fix this job and not into solar thermal I can advise, if you solar thermal qualified which you seem to have a grasp of I am sure you know how to fix this.

 

[Energetic]

Energetic, you need to be on Linkedin really as you seem to be banging out the commercial aspect of everything (no dig or offence intended) obviously commecial aspect of RHI is beneficial to your business as it is to others on the forum.

None taken. The commercial RHI is currently the only RHI, that's the point really. A tech that attracts RHI will likely have a better return than one that doesn't. Clearly there's more to it than that but it's a general assumption.

I'm on linked in but pretty dormant, have found the forum more use in the past but seem to have a bit more time on my hands lately. I'll try to find you, see if you recognise me...

 

[The Solar King]

Solar thermal properly configured is the best option. There are a number of considerations that need to be taken into account to do this successfully. The swimming pool module in Tsol Pro is very helpful in this configuration.

A heat pump may not be the best auxiliary heat source to be used in conjunction if it is only going to heat the pool. Ground source is often a far better bet that air source.

If it is a private ppool, integration with domestic heating should also be considered.

With regard to the east facing panels mentioned, if correctly sized this can be perfectly acceptable for solar thermal as can a degree of over shading. Thermal is not as prone to these issues as PV. Such configurations can be very successful if done correctly. (sounds like this one may not be).

 

[Gavin A]

yeah, we have east facing solar thermal on our house, so I'm aware it can work, just here when ground mounted, I reckon it's only getting around 4-5 hours of direct sunlight a day at most. and the front array will shade half the back array for much of the year as well.

I might have to take a picture.

 

[yau]

Holy SHHHHHHH, you get my drift.

Who the hell installed that, that is a real problem and tubes probably shot to hell as heat exchange would not call for power this is why solar themal is given a bad name

You all sound very expert. please help me. when we bought the house it come with an indoor poor in a seperated wooden building.3.3m x 8.8 m x 1.5m. Now using night time electric tarrif to heart with a 14KW pool heater.
It still costing me arm and leg to heat it up and therfore very little use.


I am thinking to get cheeper heating system either Air Source heat pump or solar. i gett so confuse. keep getting different opinion. Can i get glazed solar panel or un-glazed is good enough? I am in Surrey UK. Or should i use heat pump? Which make of ASHP is good?


Thanks for helping

 

[Glen Powell]

First question, do you want to use it every day all year round or does it tend to be seasonal, there will be a load more questions to determine the correct technology.

Cheers

Glen

 

[yau]

Thanks Glen

I would like to use it all year round but it will be too expensive. Even with the wooden building and a geothermal cover, I think it will be too expensive to keep it 28 to 29 'c. So I.m planing to use it May to October. The wooden building roof is south facing but two tal, tree shard it a bit from sun. I check yesterday it should get direct sunlight 10 am to 6pm.

I calculated, may be wrong, the 14 kw heater will cost me £6 to £8 per night (11pm to 7am)and will only increase 2 degree. Therefore I looking for cheaper way.

Thanks advance for the advice

Regards
yau

 

[Glen Powell]

Hello with you looking at seasonal heating it makes life easier for recommendations, do you have enough space either on a roof or on the ground circa 8 to 10m by 2m,

Othere Questions

- What is heating the pool at the moment
- Does your heating system have inbuilt heat exchanger or seperate
- how far is the plant room from the pool / roof / suitable ground area
- How are you heating the pool house and to what temperature
- Do you have any idea of what the heat loss is in the building
- Is the pool chlorinated / Salted / natural water
- Where in the country are you
- would you be able to send pictures of the various areas mentioned Plant in plant room / roof area / pool house itself.

It is a straight forward job and I beleive swimming pool installations can be easier than domestic heating installs, I will be able to assess and give you a ballpark idea of costs of installation, although it is more expensive than a boiler I think it is possible to get return in investment quite quickly compared to other systems.

Cheers

 

[The Solar King]

Lots of air source pumps available for summer heating season. Just Google Swimming Pool Heat Pump. Be sceptical of COP figures. They all assume a constant ambient air temperature of 15deg C, not something you get all day every day April to September.

 

[yau]

Hello with you looking at seasonal heating it makes life easier for recommendations, do you have enough space either on a roof or on the ground circa 8 to 10m by 2m,

Othere Questions

- What is heating the pool at the moment
- Does your heating system have inbuilt heat exchanger or seperate
- how far is the plant room from the pool / roof / suitable ground area
- How are you heating the pool house and to what temperature
- Do you have any idea of what the heat loss is in the building
- Is the pool chlorinated / Salted / natural water
- Where in the country are you
- would you be able to send pictures of the various areas mentioned Plant in plant room / roof area / pool house itself.

It is a straight forward job and I beleive swimming pool installations can be easier than domestic heating installs, I will be able to assess and give you a ballpark idea of costs of installation, although it is more expensive than a boiler I think it is possible to get return in investment quite quickly compared to other systems.

Cheers

Hi Glen

Thank for the reply and help

Yes the part of the roof which facing south is about 6m x 8m.
the heating at the moment is Thermalec electric heater 14KW.
The system now have no heat exchanger, the water pump through the heater.
The plant room is next to the building, the food is about 2 m hight
the pool house is not heated, temperature now is about 15.c summer time is about 20 to 28'c
heat loss of the building is high, the building is a wooden lodge with double glaze window.
The pool is bromineated not chlorine
I am England, London
Yes i can send you picture, what is your email acc pls

many thanks

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I had an e-mail from this lot earlier in the week www.powernation.co.uk