Help me pricing a job.

[accordfire]

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

not.sure,,maybeee,way he rite.wat he saying?

 

[1shortcircuit]

This is a great thread and there are some very informative posts

One thing I would like to ask is, if the builder is managing the project then how much more work is going to be going on in the property whilst you are on site?

I have been working in a property recently that has thrown up challenges involving working alongside other tradespeople who have no respect for what it is you are doing and certainly don't treat your cable with the care that you know it needs. This could create a massive headache when it comes to IR testing.

Silly little things like not being able to get into rooms due to other works will certainly keep you mentally tested. Probably best to keep a log of exactly what you have done or more importantly, what you were unable to do.

Is the property going to be lived in or is the owner vacating the premises whilst the work is carried out? You could end up finding that the amount of items that need moving could add up to days as opposed to hours in labour.


I wish you good luck in your bid and hope you walk away with a nice little sum in your pocket too

1shortcircuit

 

[accordfire]

This is a great thread and there are some very informative posts

One thing I would like to ask is, if the builder is managing the project then how much more work is going to be going on in the property whilst you are on site?

I have been working in a property recently that has thrown up challenges involving working alongside other tradespeople who have no respect for what it is you are doing and certainly don't treat your cable with the care that you know it needs. This could create a massive headache when it comes to IR testing.

Silly little things like not being able to get into rooms due to other works will certainly keep you mentally tested. Probably best to keep a log of exactly what you have done or more importantly, what you were unable to do.

Is the property going to be lived in or is the owner vacating the premises whilst the work is carried out? You could end up finding that the amount of items that need moving could add up to days as opposed to hours in labour.


I wish you good luck in your bid and hope you walk away with a nice little sum in your pocket too

1shortcircuit

Good points - and exactly why you need to make sure you agree the work to be done up front, in detail. You need to have the customer sign a contract/agreement, that outlines your terms for all these eventualities.

There's a procedure we follow for every job we do, from I don't know, an extra socket outlet, to a national multi-site fit out programme.

From initial enquiry, we do a specification, or scope of work (essentially a site visit or from plans), to identify exactly what it is the customer wants or needs.

We then submit this to the customer for approval and signature of agreement. With that goes out standard t&Cs, plus a list of what we DON'T do in that scope - e.g. making good, redecoration, redesign, specialist access (unless priced for because we knew we would definitely need it), work outside of normal hours, waiting, and so on.

We also make it clear that we're happy to price for any or all of these things too, and will vary the quote in writing to that effect if requested. We then amend the specification so that everybody remains dead clear on what's to be done.

Together with this comes a one page quotation, which includes the general terms of business - the price, when we expect to deliver, what we include (bill of quantities), how we expect to be paid, what we do for delays, non-supply of materials (whether they supply or we do, different rules, but covered), and so on.

Customer will then send us back our signed request to work form, with his Purchase Order (we only work commercials). At this point, we have explicit written agreement to a clearly defined work project, and everyone knows where we stand in respect of pretty well any eventuality.

When, as often happens, a variation comes up - either because during install we find we can't do something a particular way because of one reason or another (our design excepting), or because of the customer wanting extra, we revise the specification with an insert to account the additional work, and quote it up front, get the signature, and the PO, and get the work done.

On final completion, we hand over an "as fitted" specification - which show the job as it completed. I've yet to see a project over and above the simplest of add-on jobs have an as fitted spec look the same as the initial quoted spec.

Sure, it's a lot of paperwork, and for a lot of jobs we use shortform versions of what we do to minimise this, but, on the whole that extra paperwork has paid off when it comes to satisfaction on the customer's part, and getting us paid. There are, like everyone, a couple of exceptions to that rule, but ironially, the major job we've had issues getting paid on, was one that was agreed and compelted outside the scope of our (now) mandatory paperwork process.

It's worth spending the time in the detail, and building up templates to cover these kind of things.

 

[andy]

what is classed as a point

 

[accordfire]

what is classed as a point

Generic term, my friend - light fitting, socket, switch, fcu, you name it.

Easy way of building up labour timing on a quote - so you know it takes you say half an hour a light fitting, then a point is half an hour - you have ten light fittings, you know that's roughly five hours of labour. Etc.

 

[Voltimax]

accord, sounds like you generate alot of paperwork, which is no bad thing. You and your customer know exactly where you are at the start. I'd be interested to know if you use any specialized software for all this? I myself use a combination of spreadsheets and word documents, but it can become very clunky.

 

[lloyd1980]

Hi guys.
I am in the middle of pricing something similar - talk about a lot of work!!
8 bedroom guest house, all with en-suite, owners flat, kitchen, utility, heating, huge breakfast/dining room. reception area, 2 patios with lighting/heating. car park lighting, up lighting for building and trees front and rear with outside sockets, new 3 phase supply, 3 zone fire alarm and emergency lighting,all cat5e data points and TV points
am designing the installation before I can price it.
I am going to price it per point, have split the installation up and intend to have a mini C/U per bedroom and owners flat, and a CU in middle floor corridor and upper reception corridor system - allowing local isolation without affecting too much else, also saving looong cable runs back to DB.

Client is buying materials,flat plate nickel everywhere, chandeliers etc wants a fixed price on labour only,
Have printed a list of exactly what, in each room he has asked me to fit
(and therefore price for) which he will need to agree.

He has agreed to stage payments on the labour and a drawn up contract will be signed by both parties before commencing work.
I have also stipulated that any delay , addition, variation, or hold up from the initial agreed spec, which creates extra time being added onto the overall priced installation time, is chargeable at my normal hourly rate.
I have also stipulated I accept no responsibility for damaged/ missing materials if he gets them delivered in bulk and dumped on site with all the other trades that will be there, I have also made clear that as he is sourcing the materials then his guarantee is with the wholesaler on the purchased items and any snags where fittings etc fail, my time is chargeable when attending to these.
.....phew!!!
I think I have covered all my bases so far, can anyone think of anything else I need to consider.
I am getting my price to him this week, the work starts in march time.

On another note, Ill prob need a couple of sparks as labour so if any of you are interested then let me know ( all dependant on me winning it of course!!)

wish me luck :s !!

 

[oldsalty]

Hi guys.
I am in the middle of pricing something similar - talk about a lot of work!!
8 bedroom guest house, all with en-suite, owners flat, kitchen, utility, heating, huge breakfast/dining room. reception area, 2 patios with lighting/heating. car park lighting, up lighting for building and trees front and rear with outside sockets, new 3 phase supply, 3 zone fire alarm and emergency lighting,all cat5e data points and TV points
am designing the installation before I can price it.
I am going to price it per point, have split the installation up and intend to have a mini C/U per bedroom and owners flat, and a CU in middle floor corridor and upper reception corridor system - allowing local isolation without affecting too much else, also saving looong cable runs back to DB.

Client is buying materials,flat plate nickel everywhere, chandeliers etc wants a fixed price on labour only,
Have printed a list of exactly what, in each room he has asked me to fit
(and therefore price for) which he will need to agree.

He has agreed to stage payments on the labour and a drawn up contract will be signed by both parties before commencing work.
I have also stipulated that any delay , addition, variation, or hold up from the initial agreed spec, which creates extra time being added onto the overall priced installation time, is chargeable at my normal hourly rate.
I have also stipulated I accept no responsibility for damaged/ missing materials if he gets them delivered in bulk and dumped on site with all the other trades that will be there, I have also made clear that as he is sourcing the materials then his guarantee is with the wholesaler on the purchased items and any snags where fittings etc fail, my time is chargeable when attending to these.
.....phew!!!
I think I have covered all my bases so far, can anyone think of anything else I need to consider.
I am getting my price to him this week, the work starts in march time.

On another note, Ill prob need a couple of sparks as labour so if any of you are interested then let me know ( all dependant on me winning it of course!!)

wish me luck :s !!

so please tell us where you are?

PS - yr PM in box is full and rejecting new PMs!

 

[lloyd1980]

inbox sorted - thanks

 

[DurhamSparky]

hey lloyd you had any run ins with plasterers lately!!

 

[accordfire]

accord, sounds like you generate alot of paperwork, which is no bad thing. You and your customer know exactly where you are at the start. I'd be interested to know if you use any specialized software for all this? I myself use a combination of spreadsheets and word documents, but it can become very clunky.

No special software - it's all spread sheets and Word Docs refined over time, and made into relevant templates. It's about as automated as it can be, but it means I can put a full spec out in an hour or so.

I use different paperwork forms depending upon what's required - but the real pain is tracking it all once in play - numbering can be a pain.

I know it's all something that could be automated a whole lot further with an Access or SQL database - just haven't had time at all to play around.

 

[Giovanni]

If pricing is not your thing may a price/job calculator is the way forward, it needs all the specifics though to make it accurate....

 

[accordfire]

If pricing is not your thing may a price/job calculator is the way forward, it needs all the specifics though to make it accurate....

Yeah, agreed - pricing can be the bane of any job. And there are so many hiddens initially, it's easier to get it wrong than right.

Best, easiest thing to do is to build a basic spread sheet, listing everything, and with your mark ups already put in - so you can see the job build up in front of you.

For us, We put in materials at list price, then a labour time per "item" - so it calculates if we have ten of an item, or one, or three.....and give a line total of unit price, and labour time.

Then we apply our mark up to the total materials price at the bottom.

Then we add a margin for fixings, and other misc items.

Our labour rate takes account of direct overheads, and is set accordingly. The sheet then adds in the total labour * the labour rate per hour.

Finally, we have the sales total - but our sheet also calculates GM and GP for us too - which is transferred into another sheet automatically, against which I monitor our quotes, and margins, etc....

We can also quote buy-ins as part of the sheet - ground works, specialist commissioning, project management - stuff we buy in complete, that we don't do ourselves as such. And finally it can calculate sales commission - which we pay on profit, not on invoice value (hard to get your head round at times).

It's not a pretty sheet, but as a build up sheet it does what we need it to.

Critical calculations for us are labour rate - overheads - we need to know how much profit we make on our labour (or not). In simple terms, if our overheads are say £25 per hour - we need a labour rate in excess of that, which is generally set at a level and left there - say for this discussion, £35.

Margins are then calculated on the elements of the price that are not cost of goods - or cost of job - e.g. mark up on materials, profit on labour, mark up on buy ins, proportion of misc (less an amount that will actually be spent for finxings, etc., and so on.

After all that, it tells us two things - how profitable the job is, and how much room we have to move, should it be necessary.

Once the job is done, we compare the finished costs to the quoted costs, on an ongoing basis to make sure we're maintaining margin, etc. That's done in another sheet. We also, obviously monitor the margins on successful quotes, failed quotes, and so on too - to spot if we've gone in too high on particular work, or too low, - patterns develop over time.

 

[Voltimax]

Alot of worksheets then. How do you file them all?
I have an estimating sheet that some would say is complicated, but it doesn't do what yours does. I have seen some good examples over the years, some people have given me theirs and I in turn have shared mine. I do believe I sent one to andekoch from this very forum, he sent it back to me heavily modified for his purposes. a lot of work went into that spreadsheet when I made it and ande must have put even more time into it. It would be nice to have one program that does everything.

Funny that you mention Access. I have a friend who is also an electrical contractor, he taught himself VB and went on to make a database that does literally everything an electrical contractor would want, even certification. It took him 3 years to build!!!

 

[accordfire]

Alot of worksheets then. How do you file them all?
I have an estimating sheet that some would say is complicated, but it doesn't do what yours does. I have seen some good examples over the years, some people have given me theirs and I in turn have shared mine. I do believe I sent one to andekoch from this very forum, he sent it back to me heavily modified for his purposes. a lot of work went into that spreadsheet when I made it and ande must have put even more time into it. It would be nice to have one program that does everything.

Funny that you mention Access. I have a friend who is also an electrical contractor, he taught himself VB and went on to make a database that does literally everything an electrical contractor would want, even certification. It took him 3 years to build!!!

Everything electronic. Backed up, and backed up again. We print as little as possible, preferring to use email and PDF formats where possible, right down to invoicing, which customers, on the whole, are happy with - but then we don't do domestics, where it would probably be more of an issue.

It is a lot of worksheets, ultimately - but that's kind of down to the business each of us wants to run - for some, the numbers are all important (or have to be) and for others, it's enough to do a day's work, and generate enough income from that to keep the family fed (which is I guess, what we all do, in varying scales anyway).

There is a key piece of business advice I was given many years ago, by a guy who's no longer with us (he died in a plane crash sadly) - and which has remained one of the single best pieces of advice I've ever been given for any part of my life - and that is keep it simple. In real terms, as simple as you can, to achieve the desired result. Seems logical, but human nature seems to be to find the most complicated way we can of doing a thing.

Over complication, especially of the nuts and bolts of a business, is as much a contributor to its eventual downfall as not doing anything in the first place.

The simple translation of all that is, I suppose, to do what works in each case.

As for Access databases - one day