Help Needed - Self Employed/Apprentice

[little_duke]

Hi All,

I'm new to this forum and need some help. I am 26 and in my second year at college doing my level 2 2330 c&g course. I have part 1 already and am 2 months away from my level 2.

I am currently with my third company now as a trainee due to work going dry and me not getting on with one of the employees at the old firm.

thing i need to know is.

As said before it's my third year working as an apprentice, but i'm also self employed. as far as i'm aware this is illegal as i don't have a contract, am told to wear uniform for the company but not allowed holiday pay and get a severe £35 a day before tax.

Being older i have bills, car insurance, petrol and normal expenses to pay for but i dont know where to stand?

at 26 years old, earning £112 a week is shocking, help me out on the facts

cheers

mark

 

[TaffyDuck]

There is no minimum wage for self-employment and as far as I am aware you need to be employed to fully complete a modern apprenticeship scheme but you can complete 2330 and pay for AM2 if you are self employed.

Wearing a uniform, using company tools and being there 30 odd hours a week would constitute employed status in the eyes of the inland revenue I would think.

 

[needasparks]

As Taffy says, I would think it is not in line with college conditions so best check with them or you could get slung off course.
I had to go through all this with my currect apprentice with the college who were checking up on him.
They also normally want a copy of contract of employment and H&S policy

 

[little_duke]

Brilliant, thanks lads.

i'm worried that it will all be for nothing as i've done 2 years at college and not been doing it to the rule book due to me finding this out.

I went to citizens advice and they told me i can claim £237 a week off the government whilst training to help me out so may give that a go.

 

[piratebillybob]

self employed as what? If you havent finished the 2nd year then youre not legally competent to do anything.

Are you actually completing a 4 year apprenticeship with the college or are you simply working while completing some college courses?

I only ask because im suprised that the college have allowed you to do the apprenticeship with that company, considering you have no contract and youre being paid less than the minimum wage.

Apprenticeships arent just a company taking you on and paying you squat diddly. Once the company takes you on as an apprentice they have a legal obligation to get you through that apprenticeship.

As a 2/3rd year apprentice you should be on the national minimum wage of £6 something.

 

[Gylesr]

im in a similar situation! i will have finished my level 2 city and guilds by june (hopefully) and have got a placement with the electrical company that i have been doing one day a week work experience with. the owner of the company has said he will take me on but i would have to be self employed basis charging him an hourly rate of £6.10 minimum wage an hour as a skilled labourer/apprentice. he will be supplying me with a van and tools.
I ask my college if this was exceptable way of completing my training (additional two years one day a week) and they said its not ideal but as long as you are working within the industry it can be achieved this way.

 

[VoltzElectrical]

all these 'employers' need to be careful that they don't get caught out by the IR 35 regulations. If he is supplying van and tools, HMRC will take a very dim view of this as you should be employed on th books with holiday pay, and he should be paying employers NI contributions.

You are only truly self employed if you supply your own tools, and carry out work on price, and can refuse the work or send someone else in your place.

 

[piratebillybob]

but surely if they make you be self employed then youll have to pay for your insurance/liability. Your tools, van etc. Youll have to sort out your tax, NI, pension everything.

He could also get rid you at any time as hes not your employer. You would have no working rights to speak of because he wouldnt be your boss. There wouldnt be a contract so all sorts of stuff would happen regarding what money is "owed" to you

And at the end of your training he could dump you like a bad habit.

 

[Gylesr]

your correct piratebillybob after thinking about it i would have to get my own van/insurance/liability and pay my tax/ni etc but this isnt really a problem plus got most of my own tools already. i guess its not really ideal and he can drop me at anytime he likes as youve said but ive known him for years and dont think hes the sort to do this! apprenticeships are so hard to get these days and i cant think of another way for me to complete my training.

 

[little_duke]

Jesus, just read all the replies and its clear i'm getting done.

i get paid £35 a day before tax 4 days a week (£140) and it works out £112 after tax. i get my tax deducted off my boss and paid to the cis scheme. he said he will get me a uniform but not sure i want to wear it.

i dont get holiday pay, i paid my own college, i take my own tools. he just gives me work and sends me with one of his lads to complete the jobs set out.

it's an absolute joke because this is my second year and ive got nothing saved. my old company who i left last month were the same terms but i was supplied uniform and ppe, and got a wage of £30 a day before tax but got paid £30 to go to college one day a week. my course is only 3 years long then i have my am2 straight after (next august)

 

[TaffyDuck]

One reason that apprenticeships are so hard to come by now, other than the economic climate, is that the colleges take all the funding, employers get nothing but hassle and the apprentice gets the full benefit of employment law. Used to be that apprentices didnt get the same protection. Now I`m not saying that this is wrong just that the benefits of employing an apprentice has reduced considerably over the last few years. Hence fewer employers are likely to do it.

 

[piratebillybob]

Jesus, just read all the replies and its clear i'm getting done.

i get paid £35 a day before tax 4 days a week (£140) and it works out £112 after tax. i get my tax deducted off my boss and paid to the cis scheme. he said he will get me a uniform but not sure i want to wear it.

i dont get holiday pay, i paid my own college, i take my own tools. he just gives me work and sends me with one of his lads to complete the jobs set out.

it's an absolute joke because this is my second year and ive got nothing saved. my old company who i left last month were the same terms but i was supplied uniform and ppe, and got a wage of £30 a day before tax but got paid £30 to go to college one day a week. my course is only 3 years long then i have my am2 straight after (next august)

unfortunately you may just have to bend over and take it. If it is a way to get you qualified then do it. Yes youre being shafted but not progressing is a worse alternative.

can you not look out for another company while youre with that one?

it seems people have a choice of no apprenticeship at all or one where theyre being f**ked

 

[TaffyDuck]

Just to point out that as a self employed person you have your personal tax allowance which is 7.45k a year. You are earning say 48 weeks at £140 per week = £6720 so you will be able to claim back all of what you pay. Your NI contributions are 12% of what you earn above £139 per week so that 12p per week. (140-139 x 12%). Therefore you can reclaim all your tax 48 x £24 per week you are being deducted = £1152 per year

 

[VoltzElectrical]

you will get all your tax back on that wage. your tax return should cost around £200 and even this is offset-able against tax. You should be on the books though with your arrangement. Your 'employer' as that is what he is, is working outside of the employment remits or the law, however you want to look at it.

Check out the IR 35 regulations to see how you should really be 'employed'. However, bringing this up will probably lose you your job!

You should NOT wear the uniform, unless he pays you PAYE, on the books with holiday pay.

 

[alarm man]

the problem is people like duke are willing to get shafted and pay to play,thats why theres no apprenticeships out there,why would a company go throught the cost and hassle when imo daft people are doing it themselves and paying for it,then willing to work for min wage or in some cases free..dont moan about it..