Help with first job!

[hoppy]

Hi, I have got my first job on my own tommorow. I have been asked to look at a friend of a friends kichen, they need sockets and stuff moving and may require a new socket or 2 adding in.

Firstly, I have no real idea of how to price this job, can anyone advise me on how to price this and any tips etc?

Secondly, if he needs new sockets adding in, can I break into the existing ring and simply through crimp the cables?

I know this is a bit vague but am not going to look at it till tommorow and just wanted a head start.

Thanks

Craig

 

[scotsparky]

hoppy?

How much experiance you got?
Is it a paid job?
If its paid you got indemnity insurance?
Will you be issuing a certificate?

 

[saveloy]

Are you registered as this work is notifiable, being in a special location.
Pricing is realy your call. Depends how much you want to earn per hour. Then it depends on how much work is involved. Is the work in an existing kitchen or is it being refurbed. Too many variables for comment without seeing the job.

I am not a fan of through crimping. If you are extending the circuit can it not be done another way. Come from another socket or fit a spur.

Remember once you extend a circuit you then become responsible for the whole circuit.

Also if the circuit is old it may not have RCD in which case you will have install one.

 

[hoppy]

Thanks for the reply guys. I have 18 months experience in commercial and industrial electrics. Done some domestic work at home and in friends and family houses. So never had to price a job. Always got the materials from work also, only had to buy the odd socket and that.
Yes it is a paid job, no am not reg at the minute, but i will notify the local council and issue the relevant certs. I have no real problem doing the work and the testing. It is the pricing that is concerning me, as i have no experience of this.

The kitchen is a brand new kitchen and it has already been fitted, so can't wait to see if I have to destroy any of the it, hope the walls and stuff have not been plastered or tiled also.

I know this is vague, am not out to make a killing, just do a professional job, at a fair price, it's all experience and thats what i want more than anything at the minute.
I understand about the regs and checking bonding and all that. I am currently completeing my NVQ3.

Hope this helps a bit more.

 

[plug444]

Through crimps

 

[robsparx]

whats the big problem with extending a ring using through crimps in the back of a socket??

 

[hoppy]

So i looked at the job, need to move the cooker point over 300mm, and sink it in to the wall (surface at minute), new chrome cooker switch plate.

New chrome double socket 300m from cooker point, not sure how am going to get this in yet though!!!

New single socket under worktop for washing machine, again unsure how am going to do this, as window is above worktop and cupboards either side of were washing machine is located.

Swap a single socket for a double, no probs, again needs to be chrome.
Finally wire the cooker hood.

Can I ask, what type of power does a cooker hood take, and thus what cable size should i use. Also were would you wire it from. I imagine it would be really low current and thus 1.5mm cable. Would you come off the nearest socket?

I know i seem dumb, am not that dumb really just trying to get a grasp on this, as this is the first real domestic work i have done, apart from the odd spur and outside light.

All advice is much appreciated.

Thanks Guys!!!

 

[saveloy]

Can I ask, what type of power does a cooker hood take, and thus what cable size should i use. Also were would you wire it from. I imagine it would be really low current and thus 1.5mm cable. Would you come off the nearest socket?

I know i seem dumb, am not that dumb really just trying to get a grasp on this, as this is the first real domestic work i have done, apart from the odd spur and outside light.

All advice is much appreciated.

Thanks Guys!!!

All the hoods I've fitted only take about 300 watts inc the lamp. Best to check though. I wire them from the ring using an switched FCU (for isolation)fused down to 3A. You really need to have a look at what the manufacturer reccomends as this is what should be followed.

 

[chocolate]

A mission you may have . . . but there's always a solution. A pity the kitchen's been done and THEN they want the electrics sorting out. Not the best way to go about things.

Low level sockets - 2 options. Either mounted surface in an adjacent cupboard ( make a hole in the side to fit the plug through ) or fit socket directly behind the appliance. In the latter case, you are advised to insta;l a switched FCU above the counter. Why ? Should you need to isolate the appliance quickly, that wouldn't be so easy if it was behind the appliance requiring you to move it.

I'm not a fan of through crimping either, but depending on options, it is an acceptable one - providing a good electrical connection which is solid.

As with the cooker hood, I agree with SAVELOY here.

 

[hoppy]

Thanks chocolate and saveloy, thats the kind of guidance i am after, really appreciate your help.

Just remembered I may need to extend the cooker cable as it is moving across and not sure if it will reach new position. Think it is in 6mm, its on a 32amp breaker anyway. Whats the best way to extend the cooker supply cable, would it be something like a junction box or an adaptable box with some connector blocks, trying to steer clear of crimping as i get the vibe it is not really liked on here!

Also, what is a wago, av heared it mentioned before but never asked what it is.

Thanks Guys!

 

[saveloy]

Thanks chocolate and saveloy, thats the kind of guidance i am after, really appreciate your help.

Just remembered I may need to extend the cooker cable as it is moving across and not sure if it will reach new position. Think it is in 6mm, its on a 32amp breaker anyway. Whats the best way to extend the cooker supply cable, would it be something like a junction box or an adaptable box with some connector blocks, trying to steer clear of crimping as i get the vibe it is not really liked on here!

Also, what is a wago, av heared it mentioned before but never asked what it is.

Thanks Guys!

Is the connection going to be concealed/ unacesseable. If so then you shouldn't be using a JB as it should be accessable for maintenance and inspection. Also you would need to include a double pole isolation switch in the circuit.

As for WAGO they are like marmite. You either love em or hate em. Me I love em. I've used these before and they are maintenance free.222

Buy mine from here Wagobox Home of The Maintenance Free Junction Box

Sounds like you are up against it mate. What were these people thinking of doing the electrics AFTER fitting their kitchen?

 

[hoppy]

yes it will be concealed in a wall behind tiles, so guess no connectors or jb's then.

thanks saveloy

Yep am up against it alright, certainly picked a good one for 1st domestic job. Haha, am sure i will get things sorted, just may take longer than i thought and cost a bit more! Really gonna have to think on this one.

 

[saveloy]

yes it will be concealed in a wall behind tiles, so guess no connectors or jb's then.

thanks saveloy

Hmmm. To be honest I wouldn't be putting any joints behind tiles whether they were maintenance free or not. The only way I would do it would be to put a normal back box in, do the joint and then fit a blank face plate. It won't make the prettiest job in the world but it would be acceptable.

 

[DeanoZX7R]

Not the first time the electrics have been left till the end almost as an afterthought (both in kitchens and bathrooms). When will people realise we are electricians not magicians and that we cannot simply magic sockets etc onto freshly tiled walls with no detrimental effect to the walls etc. Rant over!
As for crimping, I used to teach crimping to aircraft engineers (pass rate was no less than 100% as there are no hard shoulders to pull onto if you breakdown at 30,000ft...) and IF carried out correctly, crimped connections are perfectly sound providing the correct size of crimp for the cable is used and the crimp tool is not simply a pair of pliers but a proper crimping tool with a ratchet mechanism to ensure the correct pressure has been applied to the crimp. The whole splice should also be sealed with heatshrink tubing for a safe, professional finish. Having then tested the circuit to satisfaction, I see no reason why they could not be hidden permanently under tiles.

 

[ezzzekiel]

run surface mounted all round the kitchen and tell them next time to put a little thought into it !!!

main thing to note here is to charge accordingly, your job became a lot harder because of their afterthought with the electrics time is money, other than that spend a little extra time on your work thats why you are a proffessional and not a diy freak.

 

[Lou7]

Can't you break into cooker cable somewhere else(above wall units or below worktop) then put a surface JB.

 

[Modernelectric]

why not agree an hourly rate with the customer? explain that you dont know how long it will take you and it may be best to work on an hourly or day rate rather than pluck a number out of nowhere, you generally price a job based on how many hours it will take you, costs travelling to the job, costs of material and a small contingency, dont forget to price for writing the certificates and testing which can take a while.

regards.

 

[montybaber]

Although seen as an acceptable method of extending cables I was always taught to avoid crimping solid core cables

 

[saveloy]

I was under the impression that crimps are disliked, because when used with solid drawn copper cable, they can become loose, with expansion and contraction, due to heat in the cable.

Always eager to hear different opinions though.

 

[hoppy]

Thanks guys for all the help and advice, i really appreciate it.

Lou7, yes i was thinking that, the house is solid floor so all the cables for downstairs are run up over the downstairs ceiling and then to to each point.

Haven't checked yet, but am hoping i will be able to lift some floor boards up stairs and get access to the current ring and the cooker circuit, that will make life a lot easier.

I have priced like this so far,

New cooker point and 13A socket - £20, 2 X double sockets - £17, 1 X switched FCU - £10, all frfom B&Q, cust wants a certain black nikel finish which i found in the B&Q.

So £47, then capping (9m), back boxes, screws and plugs, single white socket, 50 mm or75mm socket screws (as tiles will make standard scres too short),some nails for capping, 25m twin & earth 2.5mm, 2m 3 core 1.5 flex, plaster (for making good), may need some conduit or a contractos pack for getting through back of cupboards for wasing machine socket!!!!

I reckon about £110 for materials alone. Then labour, could only be a day if the floor boards are accessable upstairs (currently praying).

As he is a friend of a friend was, going to price about 200 - 250 for everything. What do you guys reckon????

 

[Modernelectric]

B and Q can be a lot more expensive than an electrical wholesaler, you can get all that gear for less than 100 quid i would have thought, and a days wage at 150 is fine (for fully qualified part p sparks!), 250 seems reasonable!

Do not forget that the circuit should be rcd protected and you may need to include a new small consumer unit for whichever circuits you end up working on! this alone can be about 50 quid and you may have to explain the importance of rcd protection! good luck!

 

[robsparx]

I was under the impression that crimps are disliked, because when used with solid drawn copper cable, they can become loose, with expansion and contraction, due to heat in the cable.

Always eager to hear different opinions though.

ok thats fair enough. its just that throughout the 3 years of apprenticeshp with my old firm nobody ever had a bad word to say about crimping

 

[DeanoZX7R]

Quite right robsparx! If they are good enough for aircraft to use they are certainly ok for buildings!! Only point to bear in mind is that the correct crimp is used for the type of cable being crimped and the correct crimping tool is used, if these simple steps are followed crimping is a perfectly acceptable method of splicing cables together!