Help with the power supply needed please

[paul-somerset]

Hi All

I need to get a power supply to 20x Camping Pods (which will each have a power socket for a kettle and each will have a light bulb) - I also need to supply an office (which will have a couple of freezers, couple fridges, ice cream machine, drinks dispenser and various tills/computers).

So, I contacted Western Power Distribution who think I will need a 3phase supply and happily quoted me £37,000 (!!) for it.

There are houses 100m to the north of me, a holiday park 30m to the side and a clubhouse 100m to the south, so power is not that far away.

That £37,000 quote is WAY above out available budget so I need to consider alternatives.

I am not electrically minded at all.

1) Can I run all of the above from a std electric supply ( as in domestic house supply)?

2) If not, would it be possible (and cost-effective) to use FIVE standard supplies and put 4 camping pods on each supply and the shop/office on the 5th supply.

Any suggestions would be welcome please.

Paul

 

[nikmet]

the kettles will make it very high load/ cost

 

[malcolmsanford]

What did Western power actually say, as in all my dealings with the DNO for new supplies you provide them with your loading requirements and they advise on the supply they will deliver.

have you had a designer do the loading calculations for you? I know your saying 20 sockets 20 lights and then a small commercial premisis, but will all these 20 sockets be on at the same time, and will all 20 lights as well, or will there be staggered use of diversity as we call it.

Again the same can be said for the office.commercial set-up what is the chance of every item of equipment, sockets, lights etc etc all being on at the same time and all the time, very little.

So my first question back is, have you advised Western power on you loadings using no staggered times or diversity?

If you have then it may pay you to contact a good electrician who will apply diversity and give you perhaps am ore realistic loading.

 

[paul-somerset]

Hi

Ive been told that we should accept that all 20 kettles "may" be used at the same time ie when people get out of bed and make a cuppa and its best to plan for heaviest load.

The stuff in the shop will be on at all times (ie freezers / fridges).

Paul

 

[nikmet]

maybe a large cafeteria style hot water dispenser for the campers to share?

 

[paul-somerset]

yes, a communal hot water supply would be good but not possible in this situation - we need to have the power sockets to each.

 

[mattmoo1974]

Has the holiday park not got 3 phase?
Id try and work a deal out with them and save 37k

 

[paul-somerset]

Has the holiday park not got 3 phase?
Id try and work a deal out with them and save 37k

Nice try - its a national operator.

By the time Ive got thru to anyone who could even discuss the issue Id have earnt the £37k needed for WPD by washing dishes.

Paul

 

[malcolmsanford]

To be honest Paul who advised you of that, that every camper will get up at 6am and switch their kettle on at 6.05 am, that will not happen and the DNO do not work to that, otherwise we would have the same situation in towns and cities throughout the UK where everyone will switch on kettles all at the same time in every house in the Uk.

Yes your Fridge/Freezers will run 24/7, but the thermostats on them will stop and start on demand, and not run the compressors simutaneously all the time, the same with the ice cream machine and every item of equipment that incorporates a thermostatic device.

 

[paul-somerset]

Hi Malcolm

We are also planning some event days where the camping pods are rented by companies for promotional days - thats why we need to power sockets.

I guess that Im working the power out at the highest use (ie kettles on 24/7) to allow for various items which these traders may plug into the sockets ie possible peak usage.

Paul

 

[paul-somerset]

Pardon? :whatchutalkingabout

 

[mattmoo1974]

Having 5 different supplys isnt good practice and dangerous.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Hi All

I need to get a power supply to 20x Camping Pods (which will each have a power socket for a kettle and each will have a light bulb) - I also need to supply an office (which will have a couple of freezers, couple fridges, ice cream machine, drinks dispenser and various tills/computers).

So, I contacted Western Power Distribution who think I will need a 3phase supply and happily quoted me £37,000 (!!) for it.

There are houses 100m to the north of me, a holiday park 30m to the side and a clubhouse 100m to the south, so power is not that far away.

That £37,000 quote is WAY above out available budget so I need to consider alternatives.

I am not electrically minded at all.

1) Can I run all of the above from a std electric supply ( as in domestic house supply)?

2) If not, would it be possible (and cost-effective) to use FIVE standard supplies and put 4 camping pods on each supply and the shop/office on the 5th supply.

Any suggestions would be welcome please.

Paul

Paul I fully appreciate what your doing and what your trying to achieve, but you do not design an electrical installation on the figures you are working with.

I can not sress enough that there as never been, and never will be an electrical installation that is not designed with diversity, otherwise in the home now we would have 200 amp main fuse supplies, 70mm cable feeding the Consumer units.

So now i'm going ot answer your 2 points.

1. with the figures you are quoting then there is absolutely no way you can run the installation for a standard maximum 100amp Domestic installation. With diversity there may be a good chance.

2. Unless the 5 single installations cost less than 7.5K each then it would be more cost effective to get the 3 phase. But in all fairness the DNO would most likely insist you have the 3 phases, and 3 phases a much better and safer way to do things.

 

[Engineer54]

As many here will confirm, The chances of all those socket outlets and all those lighting points being used at peak loading at the same time, is going to be remote to say the least.


Take Malcolm's advice and get an ''experienced'' electrician or even an engineer, to carry out a realistic diversity assessment on your proposed installation(s). I can assure you, that you will be more than a little surprised at the result!!! ....Personally, i'd be surprised if the maximum loading reaches 30%, and even then, it won't be for very long!!!

 

[Knobhead]

Lock away Gladys Phugh’s xylophone away at 5-30AM so all campers aren’t awake at 6-05AM.

Look at it realistically, the loading is never going to be that high. Get someone in to look at the job.

 

[mogga]

as its "Camping pods" im assuming they may not be permenant Hve you thought about a genny supply a bit away from pods ( even "Silent" gennys can make a noise) this may give you a better idea of usage and might work out easier than 37K doon the drain if it doesnt work out as well

 

[Adam W]

I think it would be safe to apply diversity unless you specifically set out to synchronise all the campers:
3... 2... 1... Start those kettles! Pour, 2, 3, stir, 2, 3, sip, 2, 3...
Likewise the idea of the kettles boiling 24/7 is somewhat unrealistic - for that to have any kind of purpose apart from making a point the kettles would need 'time off' while they're filled.

If 'synchronised kettle boiling' is what you really want you might have to bite the bullet and dig deep.

 

[paul-somerset]

Thanks for all the replies !!

As you might guess, things have changed slightly.

We're now looking to supply each Pod with a small camping stove and kettle and are doing away with the electric alltogether.

That just leaves me with power to the office for an ice cream machine (2.9KW dedicated supply), coffee machine (4KW dedicated supply), ice maker, a couple of fridges, couple of freezers, till and lights. EDIT add in a hot water heater too.

However, the power company are still quoting me for a 3-phase 45KVA supply at £12,000.

Do you guys think I will get away with a single phase 100A supply and what (if any) is the likely cost saving - from your experiences - in doing so?

Thanks
Paul

 

[malcolmsanford]

Thanks for all the replies !!

As you might guess, things have changed slightly.

We're now looking to supply each Pod with a small camping stove and kettle and are doing away with the electric alltogether.No lights or sockets for fridges ?

That just leaves me with power to the office for an ice cream machine (2.9KW dedicated supply), coffee machine (4KW dedicated supply), ice maker, a couple of fridges, couple of freezers, till and lights. EDIT add in a hot water heater too. The 2 machines you highlighted are 7kw and with the rest of the load let's call it 15kw, and that is without diversity and than comes to 65amps so yes I would say 100amp single phase supply is ok

However, the power company are still quoting me for a 3-phase 45KVA supply at £12,000.

Do you guys think I will get away with a single phase 100A supply Yes and what (if any) is the likely cost saving - from your experiences - in doing so?

Thanks
Paul

Have you informed the DNO that you will just need an 100amp sinlge phase supply as you have now re calculated your loading.

 

[paul-somerset]

No lights or sockets for fridges ?

No, we will offer a camping light (small gas bottle) and cooler box with free ice blocks. TBH it will probably add to the traditional camping "feel". Maybe even charge a premium. LOL

The 2 machines you highlighted are 7kw and with the rest of the load let's call it 15kw, and that is without diversity and than comes to 65amps so yes I would say 100amp single phase supply is ok

Perhaps I should just ask for an 80A supply or is 100A a std supply anyway. ie would 80A be cheaper than 100A?

Have you informed the DNO that you will just need an 100amp sinlge phase supply as you have now re calculated your loading.

No I only just got the £12k quote on Thursday and thought it best to double-check what I needed before contacting them.

Paul

 

[malcolmsanford]

What have you got existing there now?

 

[paul-somerset]

nothing at all - the nearest supply is 100m away.

WPD have quoted me £2k for non-contestable works and £8.2k for contestable - all plus vat of course.

Im struggling to see just where the non-contestable ends and contestable begins as their plans arent that clear - I will be emailing them later to find out (Im guessing that £8.2k contestable could come down a bit if done by my own contractor).

EDIT one other thing to consider is the cost of cabling - for instance, if I have to run 100m of cable, how much of a difference is there to buy the cable for 3-phase 45KVA compared to single phase 100A?

paul

 

[malcolmsanford]

I would imagine as it is a new supply and light commercial they would supply you 100amp. Personally I would go down the 3 phase supply route as you never know what the future holds. It's a long way in 4 yrs time to thing I wished I had got that 3 phase supply as I now want to do this or do that.

Also in worse case scenario you need to sell your concern, you having a 3 phase supply will be very attractive for future expansion.

 

[Engineer54]

Personally, ...i think it will be a ''Big'' mistake to do away with the electric light in these pods, in favour of a gas camping light. I for one wouldn't relish the idea of fumbling around in the dark trying to find and then light a gas lamp!!!

If you went for the single phase 100A supply, then you could also supply these pods with an electric lighting source, from this supply....


Any chance of some photo's of the ''Pods'' as i'm not really sure what were talking about here??