UK High Ze TNS - what to expect from DNO?

[samtheman]

Clueless householder here!

My wife told me John Lewis refused to plug in our new oven this morning due to "high readings on sockets". It looks on their paperwork like the "Pre Earth Loop Impedance Test" failed with 2.02 Ohms.

I thought that was strange as we had a new consumer unit fitted and tested after buying the house, so I dug out the installation certificate which apparently says under part 5: "Supply company should be contacted to correct the very High Ze Reading of 1.57 Ohms without delay". Who knew? It says it's a TNS supply.

So not exactly without delay I decided to call 105 (SSEN) and apparently they'll send someone out. What should I expect from them?

Pretty sure I can figure out plugging in an oven myself but if this is dangerous I'd like to get it sorted.

 

[mainline]

Clueless householder here!

My wife told me John Lewis refused to plug in our new oven this morning due to "high readings on sockets". It looks on their paperwork like the "Pre Earth Loop Impedance Test" failed with 2.02 Ohms.

I thought that was strange as we had a new consumer unit fitted and tested after buying the house, so I dug out the installation certificate which apparently says under part 5: "Supply company should be contacted to correct the very High Ze Reading of 1.57 Ohms without delay". Who knew? It says it's a TNS supply.

So not exactly without delay I decided to call 105 (SSEN) and apparently they'll send someone out. What should I expect from them?

Pretty sure I can figure out plugging in an oven myself but if this is dangerous I'd like to get it sorted.

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Yes it needs sorting out.
The guideline for a TNS Ze is around 0.8 ohms

Can you post a pic of your consumer unit ?

 

[davesparks]

What you should expect is for SSE to replace the whole cutout arrangement (the red cast iron lump and the fuseholder above it) and provide a new earth connection as part of that. They may maintain this as a TNS earth or they may convert it to a TNCS earth.

You may also need your own electrician there to reconnect your earths or SSE might do it themselves

 

[samtheman]

Yes it needs sorting out.
The guideline for a TNS Ze is around 0.8 ohms

Can you post a pic of your consumer unit ?

Here's the whole arrangement - supply helpfully hidden behind that gas meter!

 

[westward10]

The person who replaced that consumer unit should have addressed the issue.

 

[samtheman]

The person who replaced that consumer unit should have addressed the issue.

Thanks - do you mean they should have notified the supplier themselves rather than leave it as a footnote in an installation certificate for me to find two years later? To be fair I see now it's also on the EICR that induced me to get the new CU so I probably could have been paying more attention.

Anyway, it is what it is - I just hope SSEN will arrive at some point this week and sort this out for me as if they say it's not their problem I guess it might be an expensive fix!

 

[mainline]

Wouldn't the absence of a reliable and effective means of earthing be a C2 Observation, or at least an F1 so, would result in an overall unsatisfactory report. ??

 

[mainline]

Thanks - do you mean they should have notified the supplier themselves rather than leave it as a footnote in an installation certificate for me to find two years later? To be fair I see now it's also on the EICR that induced me to get the new CU so I probably could have been paying more attention.

Anyway, it is what it is - I just hope SSEN will arrive at some point this week and sort this out for me as if they say it's not their problem I guess it might be an expensive fix!

The earthing is their problem.

 

[samtheman]

Wouldn't the absence of a reliable and effective means of earthing be a C2 Observation, so, would result in an overall unsatisfactory report. ??

Ah - the original report had all sorts of observations which led me to get the new consumer unit. This observation however was a "Further Investigation" and on the installation certificate it's now just a comment on the existing installation.

Mostly just concerned with getting it put right - preferably not at considerable expense to myself!

 

[Chivers]

I'm surprised the person installed the new consumer unit before the high earth was investigated tbh and I'm also surprised they didn't got to greater lengths to explain the issue. Though nearly all the circuits are at least on RCBOs by the looks of it. what's the circuit closest to the Main isolator?


I hope you get this sorted out quickly

 

[Chivers]

The sockets being able to be used outside imho are C2. There's no immediate danger

 

[samtheman]

I'm surprised the person installed the new consumer unit before the high earth was investigated tbh and I'm also surprised they didn't got to greater lengths to explain the issue. Though nearly all the circuits are at least on RCBOs by the looks of it. what's the circuit closest to the Main isolator?


I hope you get this sorted out quickly

Thank you! Yes I asked for the "better option" as we were replacing it, just wish this had been made clearer.

 

[davesparks]

Here's the whole arrangement - supply helpfully hidden behind that gas meter!

That gas meter may well cause some problems, SSE are unlikely to be able to work on their equipment with it hidden behind it like that.

 

[davesparks]

Anyway, it is what it is - I just hope SSEN will arrive at some point this week and sort this out for me as if they say it's not their problem I guess it might be an expensive fix!

It is SSE's equipment and only they are allowed to work on it so it is very much their problem to sort it out.

However there is a possibility that they will say they are no longer able to supply an earth to your property, if this happens you will need an electrician to install an earth electrode to convert it to a TT earthing system. There shouldn't be too much additional work required for this as the CU is new and will be fine for a TT system (although there will probably be a few posts here soon arguing this point)

 

[UNG]

I suspect that SSE will want the gas meter moving before they do anything with that service head as they will need to get at the PILC termination box with a gas torch to melt the pitch in the termination box before they can terminate it into a new service head

Looking at the 3 earth connections on the PILC termination box they are not the best even the lugged connection has been badly crimped with side cutters and the cable looks to be missing a strand or two, the screws on other two don't look that tight and are probably one of the reasons for the poor earth because the PILC incomer is not properly clamped,

I'm wondering if this has carried some fault current at some time and arced a bit causing the sooty appearance

It would be interesting to do a Ze at the consumer unit and listen for any arcing noises as the test button is pressed

 

[samtheman]

Thanks UNG! I hadn't spotted that.

The nice chap from SSE knocked on the door about 10 last night. He said he was able to get a reading of 0.7 ohms (just less than 0.8) but that it would probably be higher when everything was on. He said it probably still wanted doing.

He said he'd log it and if it remains "urgent" in the system they'll probably do it in days, otherwise weeks. I asked if they were likely to replace that head and if access was a problem. He reckoned they wouldn't replace the head, rather they'd dig up my drive to find the supply cable and attach something to it? Or I could pay my own electrician to fit ground rods.

Overall I sort of got the impression this was worth fixing but not getting too worried about.

 

[snowhead]

Is the wall with the cut out and gas meter on an outside wall with access outside?

I suspect if SSE decide to replace the head they'll want to dig up outside and joint the cable and then fit the new head in an external box, or if no space come through to inside with a new cable and fit the new cutout away from the gas meter.

 

[UNG]

I suspect if SSE decide to replace the head they'll want to dig up outside and joint the cable and then fit the new head in an external box, or if no space come through to inside with a new cable and fit the new cutout away from the gas meter.

The last time a DNO engineer suggested that they would dig up outside and put a new cable into the building I was working on I suggested he re-think that one, outside this building was the graveyard

 

[mainline]

The last time a DNO engineer suggested that they would dig up outside and put a new cable into the building I was working on I suggested he re-think that one, outside this building was the graveyard

Good suggestion to the DNO, as the supply outside was probably dead

 

[mainline]

Though nearly all the circuits are at least on RCBOs by the looks of it. what's the circuit closest to the Main isolator?

Are you on about the SPD mcb ?

 

[Chivers]

That makes sense now mainline!

 

[MDJ]

Clueless householder here!

My wife told me John Lewis refused to plug in our new oven this morning due to "high readings on sockets". It looks on their paperwork like the "Pre Earth Loop Impedance Test" failed with 2.02 Ohms.

I thought that was strange as we had a new consumer unit fitted and tested after buying the house, so I dug out the installation certificate which apparently says under part 5: "Supply company should be contacted to correct the very High Ze Reading of 1.57 Ohms without delay". Who knew? It says it's a TNS supply.

So not exactly without delay I decided to call 105 (SSEN) and apparently they'll send someone out. What should I expect from them?

Pretty sure I can figure out plugging in an oven myself but if this is dangerous I'd like to get it sorted.

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View attachment 117904

this is very old and I would have it ripped out and replaced, the Provider sse will probably say it needs stripping out and get things moving for you hopefully. Been a while since I saw anything this age, around here most places I have been it are in better nick, that was once though a great job installed by a decent guy and over the years aged and somehow the main earth has ended up like a pigs ear.

 

[samtheman]

Is the wall with the cut out and gas meter on an outside wall with access outside?

I suspect if SSE decide to replace the head they'll want to dig up outside and joint the cable and then fit the new head in an external box, or if no space come through to inside with a new cable and fit the new cutout away from the gas meter.

Good thinking - the other side of that is my garage and also where the gas comes in so probably quite a tidy solution if it comes to it!