How to select an installer?

[OdeTheBear]

Hi all,

I am buying a 4kWp system onto my roof and now have few quotes. I'd like advice on how to select the best of them. I know that many opinions are very subjective and people have different ideas etc. but that's exactly why I am asking this - to let me see some points that I haven't thought of yet.

I have decided on the harware side of things, for better or worse, you can comment on the panels and inverter as well but my main concern now is to choose the best company to do the job.

The panels will be Sharp NU-E245J5, there will be two rows of eight in two arrays connecting to a SMA 4000TL installed in garage giving me 3.92kWhp. The access to roof is good and there are no pipes etc. extruding from it so it should be a text book installation (if such things exist?).

The quotes for the above range from just over 11000 to almost 13000.

Things I'm cosidering when choosing the company are:


1/ Money - the cheaper the better

2/ The company is accredited with MCS and REAL. What other "logos" are valuable I.E. telling that the company is good?

3/ The company is found in Companies House and how long they have traded. Most companies seem relatively young doe to the fact that all this is new in UK I guess. The companies that quoted me vary from less than a year to seven years in business. Is that very important? I guess not so but what do you think?

4/ Should I ask references, previous installations and go to that house(s) and ask if they are happy?

5/ Guarantee they give to installation, other warranties etc.

6/ Are the panels easily added to the building insurance or are there better options?

7/ Only one of the quotes is fully itemised, all others give only the full figure without itemising. Should I ask them to itemise of is that just waste of time because the bottom line price is the amount I will pay anyway?


Any comments and ideas would be very welcome!

 

[SolarCity]

Comments on panel choice - Good points: assembled in the UK, large stock, brand familiarity
Bad points: Not great stats, far better panels on the market

Comments on inverter choice - Good match, good inverter



1. Money: Cheaper isn't always better. After care is a big issue with solar PV and you want to know that your installer knows what he's doing. Don't be fooled into thinking that a company that has been around longer will provide you with a better service - My experience is that the opposite is true.

2. Apart from REAL and MCS, I'd pretty much ignore any other logo. Logos are simply bought and stuck on the van. They mean next to nothing.

3. See point one again. You should be able to get an idea of what a company is like by the way they deal with you. If they seem to be going the extra mile then ignore the amount of time they have been in business.

4. Yes, ask for references and visit the other customers - this will give you a good idea of what to expect on install anyway.

5. I'd say this is pretty important. Beware the companies that are out for a quick profit and then fold, avoiding any warranty obligations.

6. Can't help with this.

7. Don't worry about the itemising. You want to know what panel they are using and what inverter they are using - the rest is irrelevant in my opinion.


Hope this helps.

 

[cjapeterborough]

Just a couple of comments for sure to followup some references ideally locally to you.
With regard to insurance I called mine to request that the panels be added to my
buildings and contents cover and this wasnt an issue as long as the total value of
the property rebuild didnt increase above a certain bracket.
in my case adding the £10K didnt take me into the next tier which would have been much higher.

There is also the thought(insurance risk wise) that folk purchasing systems tend to spend more time
at home and perhaps less likely to claim on the house insurance anyway...maybe the premiums should
come down :0)

 

[northernsun]

I would be wanting to go with the company that "feels" the best, sorry thats a bit vague but essentially I mean the one that seems to be putting the work in for you, is answering any and all questions fully and honestly- even if it is negative. Which one seems like they would be back immediately at the sligtest hint of any problem to make things right, even if its not their fault.
Is the company pushing one panel and rubbishing others or is the company offering a choice of different components and trying to give you the best for your needs? Who are you dealing with? is it a salesman or are you talking to the person designing your system?
Oh, and by the way by "the one that is putting the work in" I dont mean the commision-only sales man that is after you like a dog after a rabbit!

All in all I'd agree with BiggsSolar.

 

[dansk]

I'd second that - whats your gut feeling? do you have any rapour with the any of the companys?

I agree with most things, except the age of the company - ive been trading over 7 years and i feel this proves i can run the company, and must have a history of clients and good customer service and im more likley to be around unlike a new start up that has yet to get established.

Asking for a reference in my opinion isnt worth much TBH, no company is going to give you an uphappy customer to talk to! This buisness is so over regulated its unlikley your going to come accross a bad installer - but there are some - People buy from People.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Other questions to ask reference your installation:

1. Is there anything else I can do with the inverter. The 4000TL is a very good bit of kit with a couple of fancy extras...
2. Will I get a copy of loading and wind calculations for my roof?
3. How will you penetrate the roof to attach the mounts?
4. Will you handle the FIT paperwork?
5. How long between commissioning and getting my handover pack?

As for an installer, you are more likely to get a better after service from a local firm. Ask about the history, as you may be looking at a roofing company that employs an electrician or vice versa. This thing will be sitting on your roof for 25+ years and needs to be done right. The above questions are simple to answer for most installers, but may make a salesman wobble.....

OH and theres a wealth of good advice above :smile5:

 

[flamefix]

Hi all,


1/ Money - the cheaper the better - Is it better being cheaper?

For example, Compare the roof mounting system each is using, is it robust, good quality, how many fixing brackets will they be using and where are they positioning them? The FIT return is so good you should really focus on best value for money factoring all other things other than money first.

2/ The company is accredited with MCS and REAL. What other "logos" are valuable I.E. telling that the company is good?

These don't really tell you if they are any good only that they have been checked and you will get your FIT payment.

3/ The company is found in Companies House and how long they have traded. Most companies seem relatively young doe to the fact that all this is new in UK I guess. The companies that quoted me vary from less than a year to seven years in business. Is that very important? I guess not so but what do you think?

I should say so, if they have been around longer they are likely to be around longer and not as others have said just to get in and get out.

4/ Should I ask for references previous installations and go to that house(s) and ask if they are happy?

Absolutely and ask for several and phone visit them all look in the roof look at their tidyness in workmanship.

5/ Guarantee they give to installation, other warranties etc.

see your point 3.

6/ Are the panels easily added to the building insurance or are there better options?

generally yes they become part of the structure of the building.

7/ Only one of the quotes is fully itemised, all others give only the full figure without itemising. Should I ask them to itemise of is that just waste of time because the bottom line price is the amount I will pay anyway?

We fully itemise our quotes but we are moving away from it now because no one else does. But the materials etc should be fully itemised at least even if the price isn't. Ask for it yes.


Have they done a shading analysis, have they presented the material professionally to you, having met them which would you happily recommend to your nearest and dearest. Have they checked with the DNO you can have the 3.92kW on the roof is it in writing, have they quoted for an earth to the array, do you need an earth spike for that? do you know this? have all of the installers discussed this or have you had to prompt any, if so why have you had to?
Yes stick local but not at the expense of having someone inexperienced.

 

[OdeTheBear]

Many thanks for all that replied to my questions. I certainly have now clearer picture about what to ask / confirm from my installer.


Biggsolar: Thanks for the pointers. Yes some of the newest companies might need to do their first jobs especially well in order to build reputation. And even though they might be new in this business (in UK most are) some of them do have relevant experiance runnig other similar business / job for decades, as is the case with few of the installers that quoted me.

The panel choice was something of a dilemma to me. There are so many of them around that I ended up with a brand that I'm familiar with rather than following some of the installers' recommendations, although one of them did recommend Sharp.


cjapeterborough: Excellent point, why don't I phone to my insurance company indeed! That's the best way to find out how I'm effected. And I need to inform them in any case.


northernsun: Some of the companies do import the panel they recommended but they were honest about it and said that I can request any other panel I like and they'll happily go with that. Good point in general to be aware of that trick ("We import these hi-quality panels and get them really cheap...").


dansk: Firstly yes, a good reputation in business takes time to build so that's a point towards favoring companies that have been longer in business. However, I think that this solar panel business is so new in UK that I'll don't weigh that as much as I would with some other, say, construction type businesses. And a good point about asking for references from the installers. Like you say they would cherry pick the happiest customers they have and would't mention the unhappy ones of course.


Graeme Harrold: Loading and wind calculations. That hasn't come up as yet with any of the installers. I really need to clear that one out, thanks for that. Also your other points were good, I in fact wrote them down to be asked from the installer I choose before commiting to him. Cheers!


flamefix: Some quotes didn't specify the roof mounting system or didn't mention earthing the arrays, yes, those ones go to my list now too - thanks. But what is "DNO", how can they allow or not if I can have the 3.92kW on my roof?


Again, thanks to you all for your responses, you have been a great help!

 

[flamefix]

Like you say they would cherry pick the happiest customers they have and would't mention the unhappy ones of course.

At the very least you will see examples of their work. But ask for several.
That's not to say someone new to the industry can't do as good a job, but you would as with any installer want to be certain of their training and experience and the quality of their work.You are paying a tidy sum for something that has to last 25 YEARS sat on your roof in all weathers hot and cold wet and dry snow and ice calm and gale force. If it comes off it won't be just the panels damaged but the roof and wherever what is ripped off lands will be damaged as well.
Why PV panel installations fail | Online Comment | Building

But what is "DNO", how can they allow or not if I can have the 3.92kW on my roof?

The DNO is your local domestic network operator the company responsible for fixing the infrastructure as opposed to who supplies your electricity. The DNO can be obtained from your meter MPAN number but the local installers should know this and be able to tell you.

 

[SolarCity]

An installer is permitted to install 16A worth of microgeneration to the grid without prior permission from the DNO. This, at 230v, is 3.68kW. Anything above this needs prior permission from the DNO.

Most installers, I suspect, are ignoring this and installing anyway. The problem is that the DNO is within it's right to deny connection - this could leave an expensive decoration on your roof.

 

[OdeTheBear]

An installer is permitted to install 16A worth of microgeneration to the grid without prior permission from the DNO. This, at 230v, is 3.68kW. Anything above this needs prior permission from the DNO.

Most installers, I suspect, are ignoring this and installing anyway. The problem is that the DNO is within it's right to deny connection - this could leave an expensive decoration on your roof.

Another item to add to my list. Cheers BiggsSolar!

 

[TonyL]

You have the same kit in mind that I had installed in March. After 143 days, I am £1,051 better off + whatever solar lecy I have used - which I reckon to far exceed the Govt £82 pa.

My supplier, Evo, told me they did have to ask for grid connection.

You have tons of good advice above but I can add a few small thoughts;

Exterior decorating. Getting people to go up ladders and paint soffits etc is more and more of a problem these days (and that's before you wonder what kind of a job they have done). I asked Evo to install the scaffolding 2 weeks early so I could remove/repair/decorate the soffits etc. They did this without any problems. Back of house is now fully preped for a few more years and I have probably saved myself £300. We had a large extra section of scafolding put up round a chimney and it only cost £120 on the day. I suspect it would have been a lot more if it had been a one off job.

Think a lot about roof structure. My modern roof trusses are 35mm and most installers wanted to drill out 10mm of that for the fixing bolts. OK, it isn't that simple and it affects only 6 of the 18 trusses in the roof but ................... I asked for additional timbers to be attached to the roof trusses and the PV structure to be secured to that. The more surveyors and quality builders I talk to, the more I conclude I did the right thing. Roofs are important and it's badly covered area in the self certification process.

I chose to have my inverter put in the garage to keep it cooler. Repeated hot/cold cycles do nothing for the good of any piece of kit. Where are they putting your kit? I did this mostly because my roof space was boiling in summer. What I completely overlooked was that putting PV on the roof has taken away 85% of the heat from the sun !!

I also have a Sunny Beam bluetooth monitor to remotely monitor what is happening (v sad) at the click of a button. Great gadget and it lets you spreadsheet the results on your PC. (If anyone is interested in this spreadsheet, let me have an email addy).

If anyone tells you that the Sunny Beam links to the Sunny portal, get it in writing. You need an extra £500 worth of kit to do that and they will have to stump it up when they fidn it doesn't work.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Sunny Web Box, good bargining point with your installer, I will go half way should a customer choose, as I can then access the data remotely, customer gets to show off online :stooge_curly:

 

[OdeTheBear]

Think a lot about roof structure. My modern roof trusses are 35mm and most installers wanted to drill out 10mm of that for the fixing bolts. OK, it isn't that simple and it affects only 6 of the 18 trusses in the roof but ................... I asked for additional timbers to be attached to the roof trusses and the PV structure to be secured to that. The more surveyors and quality builders I talk to, the more I conclude I did the right thing. Roofs are important and it's badly covered area in the self certification process.

Someone did mention about the loading and wind calculations, yes, you are right about the importance of the roof mounting. After all, when the roof structure was designed the calculations didn't take into account exta weight of few hundred kilograms and the effect of drilling into the structual beams. Good point. Did you do something like the attached image? If so I'll ask my installer to do the same.

I chose to have my inverter put in the garage to keep it cooler. Repeated hot/cold cycles do nothing for the good of any piece of kit. Where are they putting your kit? I did this mostly because my roof space was boiling in summer. What I completely overlooked was that putting PV on the roof has taken away 85% of the heat from the sun !!

I also have a Sunny Beam bluetooth monitor to remotely monitor what is happening (v sad) at the click of a button. Great gadget and it lets you spreadsheet the results on your PC. (If anyone is interested in this spreadsheet, let me have an email addy).

If anyone tells you that the Sunny Beam links to the Sunny portal, get it in writing. You need an extra £500 worth of kit to do that and they will have to stump it up when they fidn it doesn't work.

Yes in all of my quotes I did specify the inverter to be in the garage.

The bluetooth gadget is very handy and I plan to look into what I could do with the raw output with a bluetooth dongle connected to a web server. No, I'm not an expert with such things, I'm just a plain programmer but I have interest in web things and run, for fun, few Linux servers at home.

Thank you for your help, yet another point I have to make to th einstaller!

Cheers,

Ode

 

[LightGEN]

An installer is permitted to install 16A worth of microgeneration to the grid without prior permission from the DNO. This, at 230v, is 3.68kW. Anything above this needs prior permission from the DNO.

Not strictly true, some DNOs permit 16A x 240V = 3.84kW before prior permission is required.

 

[SolarCity]

Not strictly true, some DNOs permit 16A x 240V = 3.84kW before prior permission is required.

Which DNOs are those?

 

[LightGEN]

NWEL will allow 3.84kW without prior enquiry.

 

[Worcester]

Still can't work out why you'd buy a SunnyBeam when Sunny Explorer is free..

 

[TonyL]

Still can't work out why you'd buy a SunnyBeam when Sunny Explorer is free..

Worcester, thank you very much. The answer is simple. Until this post, I didn't know Sunny Explorer existed. It certainly was offered as a monitoring option. I am somewhat miffed and it cerrtainly lowers my confidence in my installer quite considerably.

I have just downoaded Explorer and it won't recognise my plant, even with the PC next to the inverter for 10 mins. Any clues on linking the things up? I know the PC BT works as I have my Blackberry connected to it over BT.

 

[Worcester]

@TonyL

The installer probably hasn't configured the bluetooth in the Inverter correctly. Try Switching the SunnyBeam off.

There is a small configuration wheel inside the inverter, 0 is off, 1 is on (and can only connect to one device at a time), 2 - F can connect to multiple devices.

Download the Installation manual from the SMA Website if it isn't in your Handover pack, or better still get the installer back out to change it.

We often find that the built in bluetooth devices in laptops / pc's just arent't man enough to connect so nip along to Maplins and get a 100m Bluetooth dongle.

 

[BruceB]

There are 2 common problems:
- Set the Bluetooth dial on the inverter (the right hand dial) to something other than '0' or '1'. In other words to 2,3.....D,E or F. You want a 'channel' (not quite the right terminology I think but not going to look it up now) that no one else locally is using.
- Windows, depending on the flavour and update level can be flaky with Bluetooth. What I have found works if I am having trouble is to make sure the Bluetooth is active first through the Control Panel and run a scan of available connections. Once you can see it working then run up Sunny Explorer and it should work.

Regards
Bruce

 

[TonyL]

Thanks guys. Have been reading the install manual. Eventually got it working by updating my PC BT driver. The BT switch on the inverter had been left on 2 so my thanks to Evo. Not as sexy as the Sunny Beam but workable and you get all the data. I can't see a way of uploading to the Sunny website. Any thoughts ?

 

[series530]

I'm in the same position as the original poster: close to making a decision having had a number of quotes.

I thought I had hit gold with the first one (recommendation from a work colleague). He had the right answers and the right numbers and the price was attractive. He didn't go in the roof but he was sure that the age of the house told him enough. The second went over board with checking this and that and scratching his beard. I could see the pound signs. He wanted to go off and do some proper checking and a shade analysis (what ever that was). More pound signs! The third was reasonably thorough (he went in the roof) but I didn't feel that comfortable with what he was offering. His prices were OK.

Then, through this forum and a huge amount of reading I began to get the gist of what all of this stuff is about. I began to see what mattered and what didn't. Then the last quote came in - all bases covered, the full shading analysis. I got references and I followed them up. The quotes were not cheap but they were compelling - thicker cable results in lower loss and a higher harvest - compound that over 25 years and it makes a difference - stuff like that.

It's a huge investment ... a really huge investment. It needs careful thought:

Here are a few of the things that have mattered to me as a potential purchaser (rather than as an installer). Just a different perspective... and in no particular order:

If your motivation is return on investment, you are trying to maximise the energy harvest as this is by far the biggest pay back item in the FIT. The more power you harvest up to the limit, the more money the energy company is going to be paying you. Remember: the harvest is for 25 years if the FIT's run for full course. 1 percent more harvest could make a huge difference in ROI over 25 years. It may be worth spending a bit more to accumulate a lot. Get familiar with using Microsoft Excel and do some sums - you could learn a lot very quickly!!

Your harvest will be compromised by the radiance of the sun. You cannot control the sun but you have some control over the shading that objects cause. Shading really is a big problem. There is no point in stuffing your roof full of panels and finding that all of the strings are stunted by shade. Far better to have less strategically placed panels that avoid shade. The material and labour cost will be lower and you may end up having a higher overall output. Micro inverters will mitigate some of that but they will increase the installation cost. Some people like micro inverters, some don't, some are afraid of this new technology. Be open to options if any form of shading affects your array.

Reflections, clouds and goodness knows what will also cause secondary differences in panel performance. Coupled to a string inverter the compromise will affect the harvest. Micro inverters will help somewhat - but at a cost up front.

Beware of people siting panels close to gutters. You need about 10 inches of run off so that rain comes off the panel and gets trapped in the gutter. One company completely missed this point. Not ideal for the structural integrity of the house long term.

One company didn't bother to look in the roof. He was satisfied that the age of the house was enough of an indicator. This worried me greatly. Cover the risks before quoting: no good if you get slapped with an extra bill for additional strengthening or for repair of your roof when it caves in.

Another company offered a warranty without separate insurance backing. They were new to the market with a background in IT. This diversification could, IMHO, be short lived as the FIT's start to drop off - then where would I be?

We took the attitude that the panels would be on our roof at the front and we wouldn't see them. Our house wouldn't win any prizes for beauty so who cares? The more we thought though: why make the house look like a solar array with huge ugly panels slapped all over them? Far better to take a little thought surely? Think carefully about the positioning of the panels both for shading and aesthetics - you may want to sell one day and the house should look reasonable. Who will buy a house that is made as ugly as a stick just to get a FIT?

Think about the loading carefully - it's heavy kit and huge bolts will compromise roof strength.

Think about safety - one company said that scaffolding wasn't needed. Our roof is about 50 degrees and is about 30 feet from top to bottom (chalet house). The thought of installing panels high up using ladders... how does that work? what damage could that do to fragile tiles? I would hate to see an installer tumbling to the ground just because the quote went with a long ladder !

Take up references. yes they could be skewed, but talk to people and try to read between the lines. The references that I have taken have helped me no end to make a decision.

I think I have made my decision. It's with a company that I am happy with. It will cost me more but I am sure that it will be done properly and that the harvest will be a good one. I don't mind paying a bit more because I think I will get a professional installation and decent customer service. Time will tell. I hope I wont be eating these words in six months or six years from now.

Good luck.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Look for a company that will help you with self consumption of generated electricity, even if its nothing more than altering your electricity usage.

Roof calcs, I will give a cursory glance in the roof space initially, as I always get a surveyor in to do the calcs. Part of my handover pack is a cert stating the roof can support the weight and wind loads. A lot of installers are about to come unstuck over this.

Scaffolding is a MUST even for a bungalow, this would include a suitable mobile platform. Id be wary of anyone who would install from ladders alone.

Micro Inverters. There are still issues with these especially with DNO's. If you are fitting, make sure your DNO will accept them.

Panels should not be positioned closer than 300mm (guidelines) to roof edges, this is mainly due to the wind flow round the edges of structures, however as you mentioned this can also cause problems with water runoff missing guttering. More of a problem with steeper pitch.

For the future, keep an eye out for SUnny Home Manager if you are going for an SMA inverter.

 

[Worcester]

Panels should not be positioned closer than 300mm (guidelines) to roof edges

Hi Graeme, I respect your knowleagable posts, however, I must have missed where that (300mm) is actually written down. We strive for 450mm all round, and if less will significantly increase the number of roof hooks /anchors (decrease the spcaing) at each end of the rails.