Hum.....is this a C2, C3 or no code.....

[Octopus]

OK.

Doing an EICR on a "chapel" in the middle of a grave yard today.....

So there is a 40A MCB, with 6mm T&E running through the wall to:







Then the 3 x 2.5 mm's each run in surface trunking (the longest run is about 10m) to 1G 13A sockets and at each one there is a wall mounted 3KW fan heater plugged in.

Now I am a bit torn between a C3 and a C2 for the cable/OCPD

and for the plugs for the heaters I'm inclined to give a C3 with a recommendation that they plug and socket be replaced with a S FCU.

So how would you guys view this install?

AND

They reported issues with the 32A MCB tripping - I looked hard to see what it did but apparently nothing BUT with it disconnected from the MCB is showing:



It transpired that one end of the ring was in the adjacent 20A MCB and this is the other end which used to be in the 32A MCB - which won't reset at all.


Also in my inspection of the property I nearly missed this socket (its how you turn on the outside light!):



You have to look hard to see it - C3?


And of course there are 2 lighting circuits, both 1.5mm T&E on 20A MCB's

And the CU is a fairly rare GEWISS board!


All in a fun days work!

 

[Octopus]

wow.... 42 views and no thoughts....

 

[davesparks]

I'm still thinking, it's not exactly an easy one is it!

 

[davesparks]

The 2.5 on the 40A MCB sounds wrong on the face of it, and I would be concerned that it may not be adequately protected for fault protection even if over current protection can be omitted for it. I'm not entirely sure over current protects toon can be omitted in this case as the circuit feeds socket outlets, and I'm not sure that fan heaters can be considered as a load which cannot suffer an overload fault (it contains a motor after all, albeit a very small one)

I'm not sure there is much to say about the socket in the window, obviously it could be done better but is would that be an improvement for electrical safety?

 

[Octopus]

I'm still thinking, it's not exactly an easy one is it!

No. I spoke to a mate and we were both not sure!

My thinking was that some muppet could come along, change the 3 x 1G sockets to 3 x 2G sockets and plug 3 more heaters in - so immediately the load could be about 78 amps - which would take out the 40A breaker, but the 3 x 2.5 is still probably OK!

 

[Octopus]

The 2.5 on the 40A MCB sounds wrong on the face of it, and I would be concerned that it may not be adequately protected for fault protection even if over current protection can be omitted for it. I'm not entirely sure over current protects toon can be omitted in this case as the circuit feeds socket outlets, and I'm not sure that fan heaters can be considered as a load which cannot suffer an overload fault (it contains a motor after all, albeit a very small one)

I'm not sure there is much to say about the socket in the window, obviously it could be done better but is would that be an improvement for electrical safety?

My thinking on this was more about accessibility - so maybe a C3!

 

[Brightspark2]

No. I spoke to a mate and we were both not sure!

My thinking was that some muppet could come along, change the 3 x 1G sockets to 3 x 2G sockets and plug 3 more heaters in - so immediately the load could be about 78 amps - which would take out the 40A breaker, but the 3 x 2.5 is still probably OK!

But you can't look at it like that. You just need to assess the installation as it is now.

At the moment the cable can not be overloaded so I don't think it's a code.

What is your thinking on the C3 on the socket outlet? I think I can see it near the window, cant make it out fully on my phone.

Putting the heaters into a SFCU is a good idea, I'd agree C3 for that.

 

[davesparks]

My thinking on this was more about accessibility - so maybe a C3!

How is the socket used? A permanent supply to something or is it regularly switched?
If it's a permanent supply I'd say no code, it's no different to fitting a sfcu there really.

 

[davesparks]

But you can't look at it like that. You just need to assess the installation as it is now.

At the moment the cable can not be overloaded so I don't think it's a code.

What is your thinking on the C3 on the socket outlet? I think I can see it near the window, cant make it out fully on my phone.

Putting the heaters into a SFCU is a good idea, I'd agree C3 for that.

It's not necessarily the case of the cable being overloaded, the cable is too long to apply that reg.
It is a question of whether the load is capable of suffering an overload fault or not? Being a socket outlet I don't think it could be

 

[Brightspark2]

How is the socket used? A permanent supply to something or is it regularly switched?
If it's a permanent supply I'd say no code, it's no different to fitting a sfcu there really.

My thoughts also.

 

[Octopus]

How is the socket used? A permanent supply to something or is it regularly switched?
If it's a permanent supply I'd say no code, it's no different to fitting a sfcu there really.

Its for the outside light!

 

[Brightspark2]

It's not necessarily the case of the cable being overloaded, the cable is too long to apply that reg.
It is a question of whether the load is capable of suffering an overload fault or not? Being a socket outlet I don't think it could be

I know it's over the 3m rule, I wasn't approaching it at that angle.

I agree also.

I wouldn't code it.

 

[davesparks]

I know it's over the 3m rule, I wasn't approaching it at that angle.

The circuit breaker isn't providing protection to the load, it is protecting the cable.

If the load is capable of suffering an overload fault, the fuse is there in the plug top.

The plug fuse is also there only for protection of the flex, not the load, but I get your point on that.
However I don't think the wording of the regs makes that distinction. I think the wording is along the lines of 'where the load is such that it is not subject to overload'
It's a tricky one in my opinion, it's clearly poor design and doubtful that the installers considered such fine points of the regulations.

 

[Brightspark2]

The plug fuse is also there only for protection of the flex, not the load, but I get your point on that.
However I don't think the wording of the regs makes that distinction. I think the wording is along the lines of 'where the load is such that it is not subject to overload'
It's a tricky one in my opinion, it's clearly poor design and doubtful that the installers considered such fine points of the regulations.

I Re read your post dave and edited my post. I thought you was saying the heater was the load for the circuit breaker but I Re read and you'd said socket. You was to quick to reply though [emoji1]

 

[davesparks]

I Re read your post dave and edited my post. I thought you was saying the heater was the load for the circuit breaker but I Re read and you'd said socket. You was to quick to reply though [emoji1]

No worries, I'm thinking quite a bit on this one, in my mind it's a question of real world versus the world of the regulations.
I'd be questioning whether adequate fault protection is provided for the 2.5mm T&E. The 1.5mm cpc may be undersized.