UK Inspection Report, Electric Shower, Merlin Gerin and Schneider MCBs

[Iain Stewart]

Hello,
We live in an old stone built ground floor flat, built in the 1880s. Obviously the consumer unit and cabling has been updated a number of times over the years by previous owners. One being the Local Authority who owned the property back in the 1960s -70s.

We have lived here for 25 years and decided to have an electrical inspection carried out by a local Electrician. He is a good honest guy, fully trained and qualified and a member of quite a few registered bodies. His report has shown only a couple of problem areas that should be addressed. Separate circuits for appliances, swapping circuits to the protected side of the consumer unit, updating sockets and light switches. He says although our consumer unit is older and the cabling is older there is no need change it or renew at this time but it is something we should think about for the future. He did have limited knowledge with regard to our particular make/model of consumer unit. (Young guy probably not born when our consumer unit was installed)

Now, our plan is to sell up in the new year and realising that this would be a huge upheaval and at a hefty cost we have decided to not take on the task.
However, we have hit a juncture. Our plumbing is such that we have only ever had an Electric Shower.
We wish to maintain this arrangement but have decided to upgrade the shower to a more powerful 10.5Kw unit as the old 7.5Kw shower has packed in and as you have no doubt guessed, this will involve a cable and MCB upgrade.

Existing arrangement is; distance from consumer unit to shower, 25m. Cabling 6mm², under floor in solemn space and in plaster for the last 1m. 32amp MCB on RCD protected circuit.
Our fuse box is an Merlin Gerin, (photos attached).

My questions are; (bearing in mind we are not changing the consumer unit and only wish to change the cabling and MCB for this one circuit),
Q1, would the Merlin Gerin consumer unit be able to be upgraded with a modern Schneider Acti9 45 amp MCB in place of the Multi9 MCB.
Q2, Are our current Multi9 MCBs a C-curve? I'm not sure if the writing on the current MCBs indicate the Curve type.
Q3, Would the Schneider replacement MCBs need to be a C-Curve or B-Curve type in whichever case?
Q4, Rather than a consumer unit upgrade, could we actually just update all the MCBs in the consumer unit this way?
Q4, Should we upgrade all the MCBs to RCBOs instead. (Assuming there is room in the consumer unit for such an upgrade as I understand they are quite large in comparison).

From my internet of things investigation... I gather that Merlin Gerin are no longer in manufacture and subsequently that the proper replacement for Multi9 would be Schneider Acti9. Would this be the correct information?

Any good advice appreciated for 3 dirty children and a smelly wife... I've always been a clean guy...

 

[richy3333]

I've been reading the thread with interest. Agreed that the EICR is a little lacking but far from the words I have ever seen.

Scotland recognises only 2 registration bodies - SELECT and NICEIC. If your electrician trained in Scotland via an apprenticeship it will have been via SECTT, they are the charity arm of SELECT and both are allied to SJIB. He will have taken and passed the FICA (similar to the AM2 in England). Otherwise if he trained via the C&G route then as said look for the 2391 qualification. As far as I am aware he cant be registered with SELECT unless he has his FICA or 2391 - you certainly cant with the NICEIC.

If someone was unhappy with my work then I'd want them to say and let me make it right for them.

Regarding replacing the MCB's with RCBO's you should check with Schneider that they allow mixing of oldeirand newer devices. I put the same question to Wylex this year and I they said no. I had to replace the customers whole lot of MCB's.

I would have been happy to help but I'm 6 hours north of you!
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2 more thoughts.

You could try contacting @JK-Electrical He talks a lot of sense and is only over in Glasgow.

SELECT are the only registration body in the UK that are trying to bring in protected title to be mandatory in Scotland. You might want to browse this Yet Another Dodgy EICR - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/yet-another-dodgy-eicr.177066/ The Scottish government are already trying to remove under qualified or unqualified people from the industry for example stipulating that only registered contractors can undertake electrical work in private rented property.

 

[davesparks]

Regarding replacing the MCB's with RCBO's you should check with Schneider that they allow mixing of oldeirand newer devices. I put the same question to Wylex this year and I they said no. I had to replace the customers whole lot of MCB's.

Yes it is always best to check, but Schneider are pretty good at keeping the design and backwards comparability going so I doubt it will be a problem.

 

[Iain Stewart]

I've been reading the thread with interest. Agreed that the EICR is a little lacking but far from the words I have ever seen.

Scotland recognises only 2 registration bodies - SELECT and NICEIC. If your electrician trained in Scotland via an apprenticeship it will have been via SECTT, they are the charity arm of SELECT and both are allied to SJIB. He will have taken and passed the FICA (similar to the AM2 in England). Otherwise if he trained via the C&G route then as said look for the 2391 qualification. As far as I am aware he cant be registered with SELECT unless he has his FICA or 2391 - you certainly cant with the NICEIC.

If someone was unhappy with my work then I'd want them to say and let me make it right for them.

Regarding replacing the MCB's with RCBO's you should check with Schneider that they allow mixing of oldeirand newer devices. I put the same question to Wylex this year and I they said no. I had to replace the customers whole lot of MCB's.

I would have been happy to help but I'm 6 hours north of you!
[automerge]1577527589[/automerge]
2 more thoughts.

You could try contacting @JK-Electrical He talks a lot of sense and is only over in Glasgow.

SELECT are the only registration body in the UK that are trying to bring in protected title to be mandatory in Scotland. You might want to browse this Yet Another Dodgy EICR - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/yet-another-dodgy-eicr.177066/ The Scottish government are already trying to remove under qualified or unqualified people from the industry for example stipulating that only registered contractors can undertake electrical work in private rented property.

Thanks for that richy3333, no doubt there are a lot worse...

I also understand what you are saying with regards to being given the opportunity to put it right.

However, to make such a fundamental mistake in failing to complete an important document properly does not fill me with confidence... No, I'm afraid the bottom line is I simply cannot trust the guy! Electricity to me is of the same nature as working at sea. No second chances! Mistakes in marine applications are not forgiving and neither is a serious electric shock!

If I did give him a second chance what would he do? Simply say, oh! sorry me bad, I will issue you a new report and I stand by my good judgement of your inspection?

Nope, can't be trusted!

I feel mugged off, but hey if that's the price for safety then so be it. I have learned lessons from this and admittedly I was a little naive in my approach to the whole thing in the first instance. I realise that there are good and bad in the building trade but it's an awfy job when you can't trust a registered Electrician!

Your man in Glasgow sounds good but probably too far away to justify the extra added costs of travel and the like... I will start a fresh search in the new year when the trades return in earnest. Good advice with regard the CU upgrades, I will contact Schneider in that regard.

Thanks again and all the best...

 

[Midwest]

Thanks for that richy3333, no doubt there are a lot worse...

I also understand what you are saying with regards to being given the opportunity to put it right.

However, to make such a fundamental mistake in failing to complete an important document properly does not fill me with confidence... No, I'm afraid the bottom line is I simply cannot trust the guy! Electricity to me is of the same nature as working at sea. No second chances! Mistakes in marine applications are not forgiving and neither is a serious electric shock!

If I did give him a second chance what would he do? Simply say, oh! sorry me bad, I will issue you a new report and I stand by my good judgement of your inspection?

Nope, can't be trusted!

I feel mugged off, but hey if that's the price for safety then so be it. I have learned lessons from this and admittedly I was a little naive in my approach to the whole thing in the first instance. I realise that there are good and bad in the building trade but it's an awfy job when you can't trust a registered Electrician!

Your man in Glasgow sounds good but probably too far away to justify the extra added costs of travel and the like... I will start a fresh search in the new year when the trades return in earnest. Good advice with regard the CU upgrades, I will contact Schneider in that regard.

Thanks again and all the best...

I can’t but help but thinking that ’we’ve’ changed your mind about your original electrician after #19, for other than some poor administration? ‘We’ here can be very very critical at times, and sometimes feed people’s fears.

It seems you ready to accept the advise from strangers on a forum, we can only advise what’s reported to us, other than someone you previously trusted and who has worked in your house. Why not take up the suggestion in #39?

 

[Zerax]

I realise that there are good and bad in the building trade but it's an awfy job when you can't trust a registered Electrician!

It's not just electricians... but all trades and professions ! I only ever use people that I know do a good job, or are recommended by someone that I know have the knowledge to discern good from not so good.

It's partly the result of the modern world requiring everyone to have a 'certificate' in whatever it is they do... the obvious intimation from this is that if you have the correct certificate then you must know what you're doing; if not, then you don't.

I once had to have some gas work done and was amazed that I had to explain to the gas safe registered guy how to do it ! (He had all the right certificates and was gas safe registered)

Similarly, I have heard of people finding a solicitor to deal with the conveyance of a new property... by searching online then choosing the cheapest one ! They are clearly happy to trust many tens of thousands of pounds to someone they have never met, never heard of before and is probably hundreds of miles away.

 

[timbobelfast]

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

As already mentioned, a 'Satisfactory' EICR with no Insulation Resistance readings??!

Also, is this a TN-S or TT, under the Inspection page the box for Earth Electrode has as 'Pass' marked down.

Retrospectively there is nothing wrong with this consumer unit. Out of curiosity, how long did the Electrician take to complete the EICR??

 

[Iain Stewart]

I can’t but help but thinking that ’we’ve’ changed your mind about your original electrician after #19, for other than some poor administration? ‘We’ here can be very very critical at times, and sometimes feed people’s fears.

It seems you ready to accept the advise from strangers on a forum, we can only advise what’s reported to us, other than someone you previously trusted and who has worked in your house. Why not take up the suggestion in #39?

Hello Midwest, do you do poor administration?
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As already mentioned, a 'Satisfactory' EICR with no Insulation Resistance readings??!

Also, is this a TN-S or TT, under the Inspection page the box for Earth Electrode has as 'Pass' marked down.

Retrospectively there is nothing wrong with this consumer unit. Out of curiosity, how long did the Electrician take to complete the EICR??

Hi, around an hour...

 

[westward10]

I have been doing inspection and testing for thirty plus years and consider myself pretty slick at it but to test your installation along with some inspection of its parts an hour is an inadequate period of time.

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd say the absolute minimum time it could be done properly in would be 4 hours, could also easily take a day depending on the number of circuits and problems identified.

 

[Iain Stewart]

I'd say the absolute minimum time it could be done properly in would be 4 hours, could also easily take a day depending on the number of circuits and problems identified.

In that case... I probably got what I paid for!?!?

 

[davesparks]

I can’t but help but thinking that ’we’ve’ changed your mind about your original electrician after #19, for other than some poor administration? ‘We’ here can be very very critical at times, and sometimes feed people’s fears.

Ok so the 3phase 3wire, 240 instead of 230 and wrong serial number is poor administration, but carrying out no IR testing at all, and a Ze and pfc that just don't tally are bigger issues.
Add to that the recommendation to replace perfectly good equipment for the sole reason of being 'dated'

 

[Midwest]

Hello Midwest, do you do poor administration?
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Hi, around an hour...

Hmmm, can take me an hour to get my tools out of the van. And yes, I've made the odd faux pas.

 

[DefyG]

C3 for the faceplates just because they are dated!!!!

 

[Iain Stewart]

Okay... This all just confirms the guy is a waste of time and my money yes?

The questions below may be difficult to answer for some. An electrician of say around 30-40 years experience in the field would probably be the best to advise but however, does experience always trump knowledge?

Q1: What would you suspect the incoming electrical type to be considering the building age and multiple rewires/upgrades and a known rewire done 40-30 years ago? (TN-S etc..)
Q2: With the answer to Q1 in mind, and in the knowledge of the CU, What type of cabling arrangements would you expect to find in the property?
Q3: Years ago an old Electrician got an electric shock from a ceiling rose and mumbled something about the damned Neutral is... What and Why?
Q4: We have found in some ceilings, particularly where there is a beautiful centre ceiling cornice approximately 1m wide and protruding down approximately 150mm, there is old RMC with JB's carrying 1.5mm² T/E. Would this inhibit certain tests from being carried out and if so, Why?
Q5: Without the ability to lift floors and dig -out walls, in what way/method would you suspect cable runs to be?
Q:6 Hidden behind a 3.6mm ply board clad on the front of a 12" high 3" depth ornate skirting board, we discovered an old metal back box 6" x 4". The back box contained some beautifully crafted wiring, a truly artistic masterpiece in terms of connections and precisely cut lengths shaped perfectly for their purpose. The wiring conductors are clad in cloth. What are the chances of this wiring being in use or perhaps the RMC still being utilised, and if so how would this effect IR, Ze and PFC testing?
Q6: In one of the CU photos, you can see a shared outgoing, a partially white painted cable heading off upward to the flat upstairs for approx 8-10m, What impact would this have on the IR, Ze and PFC testing, in particular for the incoming origin OPD of the installation?
Q7: In what way would the answer to Q6 affect the ELI?
Q8: If seriously concerning readings were observed at Q6 above what would be your remedy for the problem?
Q9: If your results from the Ze and PFC tests, just don't tally, what would be your remedy and what would be the maximum values you would normally expect from this type of installation?
Q10: Would you run a mile or fudge the EICR to ensure you got paid?

Thanks...

 

[davesparks]

Okay... This all just confirms the guy is a waste of time and my money yes?

The questions below may be difficult to answer for some. An electrician of say around 30-40 years experience in the field would probably be the best to advise but however, does experience always trump knowledge?

Q1: What would you suspect the incoming electrical type to be considering the building age and multiple rewires/upgrades and a known rewire done 40-30 years ago? (TN-S etc..)
You've already posted a picture showing what appears to be a TNS supply (though a better picture would confirm) so this question just seems daft?
Q2: With the answer to Q1 in mind, and in the knowledge of the CU, What type of cabling arrangements would you expect to find in the property?
The answer to Q1 has no bearing at all on the type of cabling arrangements in the property, what exactly do you mean by cabling arrangements? if you mean what type of cable then, it being domestic, its likely to be twin and earth whatever its age.
Q3: Years ago an old Electrician got an electric shock from a ceiling rose and mumbled something about the damned Neutral is... What and Why?
What? if they got an electric shock then it must be live, though you might also be looking for looped (if theyve realy failed at isolation) or borrowed.
Why? simple, they received a shock because the circuit was not fully isolated
Q4: We have found in some ceilings, particularly where there is a beautiful centre ceiling cornice approximately 1m wide and protruding down approximately 150mm, there is old RMC with JB's carrying 1.5mm² T/E. Would this inhibit certain tests from being carried out and if so, Why?
What is RMC? the only vaguely relevant thing i can think of is from the USA where RMC is rigid metal conduit, its not a term ever used in the UK as far as I know.
If it is metal conduit then the person who rewired the property has just used it to save having to create a new cable route which could result in a lot of damage.
But no this does not prevent any tests being carried out as you have described it.
Also I think you mean a ceiling rose rather than a cornice, a cornice would run around the perimeter of the room.
Q5: Without the ability to lift floors and dig -out walls, in what way/method would you suspect cable runs to be?
under the floors and buried in the walls unless they are surface mounted.
Q:6 Hidden behind a 3.6mm ply board clad on the front of a 12" high 3" depth ornate skirting board, we discovered an old metal back box 6" x 4". The back box contained some beautifully crafted wiring, a truly artistic masterpiece in terms of connections and precisely cut lengths shaped perfectly for their purpose. The wiring conductors are clad in cloth. What are the chances of this wiring being in use or perhaps the RMC still being utilised, and if so how would this effect IR, Ze and PFC testing?
if wiring as old as that is still connected I would expect it to affect the results of an IR test.
It will not affect the measurement of the Ze and PFC as this is carried out on the incoming supply with the installation isolated and the earthing conductor disconnected (or test link removed etc)
Q6: In one of the CU photos, you can see a shared outgoing, a partially white painted cable heading off upward to the flat upstairs for approx 8-10m, What impact would this have on the IR, Ze and PFC testing, in particular for the incoming origin OPD of the installation?
I am going to assume this is a DNO shared supply and not privately fed from your installation?
No effect on the testing, it appears to be unsecured from what i can see so may attract a comment about that.
Q7: In what way would the answer to Q6 affect the ELI?
Do you mean EFLI? in which case not at all.
Q8: If seriously concerning readings were observed at Q6 above what would be your remedy for the problem?
Investigate the reason for the high readings and then come up with a plan to rectify them, there are a number of possibilities and soloutions.
Q9: If your results from the Ze and PFC tests, just don't tally, what would be your remedy and what would be the maximum values you would normally expect from this type of installation?
When Ze is measured the tester calculates the PFC from this measured value, PFC is not measured directly so if the results don't tally then I would send my tester away to be repaired, its not possible for a correctly working tester to give a PFC value which does not tally with Ze
Q10: Would you run a mile or fudge the EICR to ensure you got paid?
Neither, if I agree to carry out an EICR then I will do it.

Thanks...

Answers in red.

What are you trying to achieve with these questions?