UK Inspection Report, Electric Shower, Merlin Gerin and Schneider MCBs

[Iain Stewart]

Hello,
We live in an old stone built ground floor flat, built in the 1880s. Obviously the consumer unit and cabling has been updated a number of times over the years by previous owners. One being the Local Authority who owned the property back in the 1960s -70s.

We have lived here for 25 years and decided to have an electrical inspection carried out by a local Electrician. He is a good honest guy, fully trained and qualified and a member of quite a few registered bodies. His report has shown only a couple of problem areas that should be addressed. Separate circuits for appliances, swapping circuits to the protected side of the consumer unit, updating sockets and light switches. He says although our consumer unit is older and the cabling is older there is no need change it or renew at this time but it is something we should think about for the future. He did have limited knowledge with regard to our particular make/model of consumer unit. (Young guy probably not born when our consumer unit was installed)

Now, our plan is to sell up in the new year and realising that this would be a huge upheaval and at a hefty cost we have decided to not take on the task.
However, we have hit a juncture. Our plumbing is such that we have only ever had an Electric Shower.
We wish to maintain this arrangement but have decided to upgrade the shower to a more powerful 10.5Kw unit as the old 7.5Kw shower has packed in and as you have no doubt guessed, this will involve a cable and MCB upgrade.

Existing arrangement is; distance from consumer unit to shower, 25m. Cabling 6mm², under floor in solemn space and in plaster for the last 1m. 32amp MCB on RCD protected circuit.
Our fuse box is an Merlin Gerin, (photos attached).

My questions are; (bearing in mind we are not changing the consumer unit and only wish to change the cabling and MCB for this one circuit),
Q1, would the Merlin Gerin consumer unit be able to be upgraded with a modern Schneider Acti9 45 amp MCB in place of the Multi9 MCB.
Q2, Are our current Multi9 MCBs a C-curve? I'm not sure if the writing on the current MCBs indicate the Curve type.
Q3, Would the Schneider replacement MCBs need to be a C-Curve or B-Curve type in whichever case?
Q4, Rather than a consumer unit upgrade, could we actually just update all the MCBs in the consumer unit this way?
Q4, Should we upgrade all the MCBs to RCBOs instead. (Assuming there is room in the consumer unit for such an upgrade as I understand they are quite large in comparison).

From my internet of things investigation... I gather that Merlin Gerin are no longer in manufacture and subsequently that the proper replacement for Multi9 would be Schneider Acti9. Would this be the correct information?

Any good advice appreciated for 3 dirty children and a smelly wife... I've always been a clean guy...

 

[Midwest]

Hi Midwest, got that... The report did come back as satisfactory.

However, I don't like the idea of passing on possible issues to the next person, call it good karma or something. Call me old fashioned, but my grandparents, who lived through two world wars would never have done that either.

I understand a buyer may rip it all out and that's fair enough. If we were not selling we would commission a full rewire/complete upgrade ourselves and I would insist that the highest quality CU and cabling/fittings etc were used.

As a matter of interest, what would you be replacing the horrible CU with?

Merry Christmas to you and all...

Thanks

I suspect your prospective buyer would have their own survey and an EICR etc carried out, but as has been already said, your report doesn’t appear to highlight any dangerous issues. I don‘t know your property, but if I was buying an older property, I would be expecting potentially to have upgrading it’s infrastructure, which would include re-wiring, plumbing & heating etc.

I doubt if my misses looked at your CU would have any concerns, but my electricians head just sees it as plain nasty, no offence meant. Others here would argue differently.

Replace your faulty shower, like for like, and keep your money for your new house, don’t spend it on the old one.

 

[Strima]

Those Merlin boards are solid and will out last a lot of the crap available now. Don't waste your money as you'll probably need it for the unexpected on your next property.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Yes that's pretty solid advice from all of you guys... Looking at the CU and considering the hassle and costs I might just take the easy option.

Wait though a plan has presented itself! Looking at the CU again, it occurs to me that it would no doubt be easy for the Electrician to move the 40amp Cooker MCB to the protected ways and then put the shower on that 40 amp MCB circuit. At the same time he could move the cooker circuit onto the 32amp protected ways MCB.

Thus downgrading the MCB for the Cooker circuit and at the same time upgrading the Shower circuit allowing a larger capacity shower to be fitted. This would also be partly in line with his recommendations would it not?

Does that Make sense, would that be possible, would it be in line with the regulations?

Thanks...

 

[davesparks]

Here is a snapshot of section 7 of the report I may have got my information wrong... What are your thoughts please?

Number 2 can be solved by fitting RCBO's rather than replacing whe whole DB.

Number 3 and 5 are nonsense, there is no need to replace things just because they are 'dated' this hould not have been recorded as an observation at all unless they have deteriorated through age so that safety is reduced.

Number 4 is nonsense, there is no limit to the number of appliances that can be run from a single circuit.

Number 6 again can be solved by fitting RCBO's to the existing board.

 

[Iain Stewart]

Number 2 can be solved by fitting RCBO's rather than replacing whe whole DB.

Number 3 and 5 are nonsense, there is no need to replace things just because they are 'dated' this hould not have been recorded as an observation at all unless they have deteriorated through age so that safety is reduced.

Number 4 is nonsense, there is no limit to the number of appliances that can be run from a single circuit.

Number 6 again can be solved by fitting RCBO's to the existing board.

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

 

[freddo]

Seems a bit odd there was no insulation testing carried out, also a bit strange the RCD test button check has been ticked on circuits with no RCD.

 

[davesparks]

Well seeing as you are throwing in the bombs on page 7 here's the rest of it...

On page 3:
they have recorded the model number where they should have recorded the serial number of the tester.
It is apparently a 3 phase 3 wire supply, yet from your earlier picture it is clearly a single phase 2 wire supply.
The value for U is incorrect
The value for prospective fault current does not correlate with the value of Ze recorded.

And they haven't carried out any insulation resistance testing???

Did they wear a stetson and ride a horse?

 

[Iain Stewart]

On page 3:
they have recorded the model number where they should have recorded the serial number of the tester.
It is apparently a 3 phase 3 wire supply, yet from your earlier picture it is clearly a single phase 2 wire supply.
The value for U is incorrect
The value for prospective fault current does not correlate with the value of Ze recorded.

And they haven't carried out any insulation resistance testing???

Did they wear a stetson and ride a horse?

I don't doubt your reckoning at all davesparks, what you have said makes sense. It looks like we have been led a merry dance with this guy. He is such a nice guy too, butter wouldn't melt... I am really peaved off with the Electrician. I paid for this inspection and shoddiness will not do at all!
The first thing I am going to do is contact, 'SELECT', after the holidays. The main body with who he is registered. I will ask them to carry out an investigation.

Dependant on their advise, I will then ask for him to explain himself and request a refund of the costs he charged us for the inspection!

I have made a copy of the advice gathered here on the forum and will present this to, SELECT with my statement. We will see what happens from there...

Thank you for your very good advice and i will update this thread as soon as I have had a response from SELECT.

It is guys like him that are giving you guys a bad name. Now it seems that even though I checked his credentials that still wasn't good enough! What the hell is an ordinary guy got to do to get a proper job done!!!

Thank you very much for pointing out these mistakes...

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I don't doubt your reckoning at all davesparks, what you have said makes sense. It looks like we have been led a merry dance with this guy. He is such a nice guy too, butter wouldn't melt... I am really peaved off with the Electrician. I paid for this inspection and shoddiness will not do at all!
The first thing I am going to do is contact, 'SELECT', after the holidays. The main body with who he is registered. I will ask them to carry out an investigation.

Dependant on their advise, I will then ask for him to explain himself and request a refund of the costs he charged us for the inspection!

I have made a copy of the advice gathered here on the forum and will present this to, SELECT with my statement. We will see what happens from there...

Thank you for your very good advice and i will update this thread as soon as I have had a response from SELECT.

It is guys like him that are giving you guys a bad name. Now it seems that even though I checked his credentials that still wasn't good enough! What the hell is an ordinary guy got to do to get a proper job done!!!

Thank you very much for pointing out these mistakes...

I think you should speak to the guy before reporting him. He will have a complaints procedure that you should follow.
You have gone from thinking he is wonderful to appalling in a short space of time from taking advice from strangers on a forum. I'm not saying they are wrong, but at least speak to the guy and form your own opinion before possibly damaging his career.

 

[Zerax]

....No, I will ask him to do only the remedial work. I'm sure he would be asking a lot more for a 4 bedroom, 1 sitting room, 1 bathroom, 1 cloakroom and a kitchen rewire with a new consumer unit. He said half a days labour of £250 for the remedial work and in my experience over the years with various Electricians in Edinburgh, that is a good price.
It will no doubt be extra for the shower that I don't mind paying. It will probably come in around £1000 that would be fine for me...

I thought Scotsman had a reputation for being careful with money ?

I'm confused now...

 

[Iain Stewart]

I think you should speak to the guy before reporting him. He will have a complaints procedure that you should follow.
You have gone from thinking he is wonderful to appalling in a short space of time from taking advice from strangers on a forum. I'm not saying they are wrong, but at least speak to the guy and form your own opinion before possibly damaging his career.

Yes nice to be nice and all that... But the evidence is clear strangers or not!

It seems to me that if they are not wrong and the evidence is clear then what other or own opinion would I need to form

Why should we be put in an embarrassing situation? That's not fair for me and my family yet you expect me to be fair on his behalf. He should not have made these errors plain and simple as that. If he is putting himself forward as a Professional Electrician then he should be able to do his job properly.

It seems pretty straight forward to me with regard to the points that have been raised. As you point out, they are not wrong! I'm a layman and even I can see that these discrepancies are wrong. I'm sure that Select wouldn't want to ruin his career either.

However, what worries me is that maybe he did not carry out a proper inspection in the first place! The evidence seems to point to it all being a little bit uncaring or lacking in knowledge. In either case, this has created doubt in my mind. A person tasked with the responsibility of safety for others should think hard about the consequences of their actions. It would be too late ask about his complaints procedure when something has happened and my family and I may be in danger of electrocution because he failed to observe a fault.

Do you think I should just take a chance?
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I thought Scotsman had a reputation for being careful with money ?

I'm confused now...

Yes indeed, we all make mistakes. It seems that even some registered qualified Electricians reputations can't be trusted either?

 

[Iain Stewart]

We have decided to put the whole thing down to bad experience, bare the financial loss and start again. I am still concerned that if something isn't done the Electrician may do harm to someone else. No doubt we are not the only ones who have put our trust in him.

However, I am now tasked with finding an Electrician who can actually do the job and carry out a proper inspection. What do I do? Where can I find such a guy? It seems to me that registration of registered bodies counts for nothing...

Does anyone know of a good Electrician in Edinburgh who is tried, tested and worthy?

Also why would our cooker not be on the RCD protected ways side of the CU anyway and why such a large MCB?

In the mean time we still have no shower! Please can someone advise me what would be a safe Shower to buy in terms of Kw rating for the circuit design. That would be if the circuit was RCD protected when the new Electrician has swapped the 40amp MCB to that side of the CU. Utilising the existing 20-25m of 6mm2 running under the floor, lying loose in the solemn and up a plastered wall for 1m. We have a 45amp double pole switch on the wall outside the bathroom then there is around 6" of cable that goes through a 1½" diameter hole directly to the back of the Shower?

Thanks.

 

[Des 56]

However, I am now tasked with finding an Electrician who can actually do the job and carry out a proper inspection. What do I do? Where can I find such a guy? It seems to me that registration of registered bodies counts for nothing


It would be a very big plus if the electrician held the City+Guilds 2391 or its modern equivalent,that would mean he should understand what the results actually mean,
membership of a scheme or size of a company means nothing whatsoever( a large company only one employee needs to be qualified, he can then oversign any of the others efforts)

You could find a company with scheme registrations coming out of their nostrils but the actual guy on the job may have no more idea about test and inspection than your good self

Staying with a one man band but insisting on him having the testing qualification will likely cut the odds of getting the same experience as before

 

[Iain Stewart]

However, I am now tasked with finding an Electrician who can actually do the job and carry out a proper inspection. What do I do? Where can I find such a guy? It seems to me that registration of registered bodies counts for nothing


It would be a very big plus if the electrician held the City+Guilds 2391 or its modern equivalent,that would mean he should understand what the results actually mean,
membership of a scheme or size of a company means nothing whatsoever( a large company only one employee needs to be qualified, he can then oversign any of the others efforts)

You could find a company with scheme registrations coming out of their nostrils but the actual guy on the job may have no more idea about test and inspection than your good self

Staying with a one man band but insisting on him having the testing qualification will likely cut the odds of getting the same experience as before

Thank you for that Des 56, sounds like a plan... What is the modern equivalent of the City+Guilds 2391 that I should look for just in case?

I actually got the original guys details from the East Lothian Council Trusted Trader website. That was a waste of time...

Thanks again...

 

[Dave OCD]

I'd add though that this qualification won't guarantee anything. With inspection and testing you ideally want someone with many years of experience, the amount of very questionable EICRs out there is quite frightening really.