Install downlights - No CPC

[peterhyper]

I have been asked to give a quote to install some downlights in a kitchen, but there is no cpc in the light circuit. I appreciate the response by some is the world would end if I did that, but the circuit is RCD protected and the last IR readings on the ciruit were good when the board was changed a few years back.

I am debating whether to do the job, because I would use intergrated downlights not requiring a CPC, and I would check the IR again to ensure it's still healthy before proceeding.

Any thoughts welcome.

 

[Midwest]

I would not. Guidance and regs say cpc should be taken to each point on the circuit.

You take on board the installation by altering or adding. If the present owner moves, and the new owner installs Class 1 fittings to your cpc, that wouldn’t be good.

Your not doing anyone any favours, it’s work, not a charity. Install a new supply, with cpc or decline the work, IMO.

 

[westward10]

The rcd offers additional protection, it should not be relied upon in the absence of a cpc.

 

[telectrix]

push comes to shove, you could take a 4mm cpc from a local circuit, e.g. sockets, that has one. not the ideal solution, but I can't see a problem with it. some may disagree.

 

[peterhyper]

Thanks guys, I know you are technically right and I'm not at all desperate for the work, but I don't believe it's making anything any less safe, and in fact by me doing it, it's going to made safer than Fred down the pub hacking it for some cash.

I get the point about taking an earth from a socket above, but even that isn't deemed acceptable, even if the consumer unit clearly highlights it. So I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea despite the downlights I would install not requiring a cpc. The consumer unit already clearly indicates the absence of cpcs in the light circuits.

 

[Midwest]

Wold you class your new wiring as fixed wiring, e.g. not flexible cable like supplying a table lamp?

 

[Spoon]

Hi @peterhyper .
3 knowledgeable people have said it's not a good idea.
I'm Industrial, not Domestic but I wouldn't do it either.
As @telectrix says, replace cable or add 4mm earth.

 

[Risteard]

I get the point about taking an earth from a socket above, but even that isn't deemed acceptable

What makes you say this?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Interesting discussion, I have thought about this a few times. It's hard for me to see the value in rewiring a circuit just to bring a cpc to lighting that doesn't use it, other than to tick the reg box. IMO, if wired in 2 core (so there can be no doubt the CPC is absent), I think this would be an acceptable departure.

That said, the wiring has to be 50 years(?) old now, getting on a bit.

 

[peterhyper]

Replacing lights or socket faceplates etc, no cert required

I have always understood that each circuit must have it's own cpc and you can't use/share one from another circuit.

I am going to suggest to the customer that I will only do it if I come off a socket in the room above into an FCU and then connect a quintec receiver to the downlights, and replace the light switch with a quintec one. That way she can have any downlights she wants requiring a cpc, and her lovely kitchen will still look lovely with no disruption to it.
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Wold you class your new wiring as fixed wiring, e.g. not flexible cable like supplying a table lamp?

The wiring would definitely be fixed regardless of whether I use twin/earth or flexible cable.

 

[cliffed]

If it’s orig lighting cable,& your not rewiring that circuit,then I would say if it’s class 2 fittings it’s ok.
Make a note on cert,exactly what you done.
Its no different from recommendations,given by Niceic,it that situation.

 

[suffolkspark]

I'd do it tbh, if the lights your fitting dont require it. I once did it and used click inceptor micro downlights I think they were

 

[Midwest]

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The wiring would definitely be fixed regardless of whether I use twin/earth or flexible cable.

I was trying to make the point, the wiring is not temporary, and forms part of the infrastructure of the property. So anyone who comes along at a later date, would expect it to have been installed correctly, and to then regulations.

Reg 412.2.3.2 (BYB) Except where 412.1.3 applies (effective supervision), a circuit supplying one or more items of Class II equipment shall have a cpc run to & terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory. There is a note there as well, about replacement of Class II to Class I accessories.

 

[Andy78]

I wouldn't do it as I don't do non compliant work. There's plenty already that have cornered that niche. I would fully advise the customer of the safety and compliance aspects and quote to do the job properly. Not my problem if they choose another way forward.

I have never understood the "Ill bodge it cos I'll do a safe bodge whereas a handyman might do a dangerous bodge" argument.
People accept bodge jobs because people offer to do them, it's that simple. If enough professional tradesmen stand up for things being done the right way then customers would get the message.

I have worked on plenty of installations with no cpc and managed a compliant job. I usually separate the room to be worked on and create a new circuit for my alterations, wiring back to the board. My work is then nothing to do with the existing installation.

I then add the customer to the list that are going to get back to me when they are ready to have their rewire work done. The list is growing, but that's not my issue.

 

[cliffed]

I can see where your coming from,it’s an existing circuit,no cpc,class 2 fittings,in my eyes it’s ok.
Pretty obvious,cpc’s are required in new cabling.