Is 0.15M ohms N - E a fault on a cooker? | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Is 0.15M ohms N - E a fault on a cooker? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

HappyHippyDad

-
Esteemed
Arms
Supporter
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
5,295
Reaction score
6,535
Location
Gloucestershire
Further to my other thread about the connected neutral. I have decided to write (politely) to the rather difficult customer and explain that I was right to indicate that the cooker was potentially dangerous.

However, I thought I better check to see if it actually is!

I found my results and the cooker tested 0.15M ohms N - E. Was I right in saying this is potentially dangerous? Bear in mind this is a piece of equipment so I'm not too sure if the >1M ohm applies.
 
It's a good question that to my mind isn't very simple! Every time I think I have nailed IR testing and cookers the next one does something different.
Here's my take:

The first question is what the test was actually testing.
If the elements are Neutral Switched your N-E test was just testing the control circuitry and internal wiring and that result would be concerning to me. (That's a test I'd do at 250v or less btw as only L+N to E is certain to be non-destructive)

If the elements aren't neutral switched then the IR test is also testing N-E insulation for all elements at the same time. This will be lower than the lowest reading of an individual test of the elements in turn as it's several resistances in parallel.

I think the PAT testing guidelines suggests a heating element of >3kw can have an IR result as low as 0.3 Mohms.

But even IR testing cannot instantly give a clear indication of the health of an element unless you run the test for a while and observe whether the reading rises, falls, or rises and then falls. Moisture in the element can evaporate or be driven to the ends where the IR will worsen as a result.

I had one recently tripping an RCD and the reading started at 0.46 Mohms and dropped and dropped, and after a few seconds it had halved. That, coupled with the fact the RCD was tripping instantly was enough for me to declare an element fault, but it was under warranty so I didn't dig further.

Unfortunately, without a return visit and even more testing I'm not sure there's a conclusive answer to your question.
Maybe @Lucien Nunes can add some much needed wisdom and experience on this one?!
 
A cooker would fall under the remit of ISITEE formerly known as PAT.

Page 72 of the code of practice gives a minimum of 1MOhm for a Class 1 appliance.
There is a note that states "certain heating and cooking equipment may be unable to meet the insulation resistance requirements, such as where metal-sheathed mineral-insulated heating elements are used. It may be necessary in some cases to switch on the equipment for a period of time to drive off absorbed moisture, before commencing testing."

In my view, if, after doing that, the reading is less than 1MOhm, it would be a failure and I would be recommending it not be used until a repair has been made.
 
Just to reiterate that 5 elements all testing 1M individually will result in a combined reading of 0.2M together if the switch is on the live side.
 
I don't have the current code of practise. The "Seaward guide to PAT testing" also talks about letting elements heat up first, and also has the following table in it, and maybe this is what I remembered:

[ElectriciansForums.net] Is 0.15M ohms N  - E a fault on a cooker?
 
How long is a piece of string? Yes, insulation resistance can go all over the shop with sheathed elements. I agree with the 0.3MΩ as an attainable limit but it's a bit of a last resort. Good elements that have been baked out should be able to do better than that.

the cooker tested 0.15M ohms N - E
As @timhoward suggests, N-E (or L-E) is not an ideal test for an appliance, at least at 500V. Always IR test appliances as a PAT instrument would, with line and neutral connected together, to avoid any of the test voltage appearing between L & N if there is leakage from one side to earth only. In many situations it wouldn't matter as there is resistive load between L & N to collapse the test voltage, but if the only load is a small electronic control / timer module, test voltage escaping via leakage could cause damage.

Is 0.15MΩ dangerous though? E.g. by causing earth leakage? Let's suppose the elements are switched / controlled in the line side only and the leakage is entirely from the elements. The element resistance itself is absolutely negligible to the IR test, so by measuring to the neutral you will read all the leakage from both the line and neutral ends of the elements in parallel (it's likely to be at the ends.) If it's the same at both ends, we might suppose there's 0.3MΩ at the line ends and 0.3MΩ at the neutral. Connected to 230V with all elements on, that would result in an earth leakage of 230/0.3M = 0.77mA so really quite a trivial amount if the IR remained at that level.

But this brings us to the crux of IR testing: A marginally low reading doesn't usually cause danger in itself through earth leakage, but as a diagnostic it points towards a defect that might become more dangerous over time, or be dangerous in other ways (such as rodent damage to a cable that doesn't leak much to earth but has exposed live copper.) So then we have to consider whether the 0.15MΩ is suggestive of such a defect in a cooker. If some elements haven't been used for a while and have collected some moisture, then possibly not. If they have all been in regular and recent use then that justification doesn't really apply, it's a bit too low and unless it recovered to a high value after brief heating, I would consider it faulty. We've no proof that the low IR is caused by the elements - it could be charred wiring that has been pressed against a hot surface where it shouldn't be - but 98% of the time it will turn out to be the elements.

So, it's a bit of an awkward one to argue with a customer. The resistance reading itself is on the cusp in the event that the elements were not all baked out before testing. Then you have to consider the distinction between technical failure, potentially dangerous and actually dangerous. The best one could do is point at the 0.3MΩ threshold and suggest that by 'potentially dangerous' what you mean is that it requires baking and re-testing, and in the event that it doesn't improve at least beyond that threshold, the cause is by no means certainly the elements and requires investigation before you can declare it safe.

Back in early 1990s when I was overseeing hundreds of schools having their first ever PAT / ISITEE, the Baby Belling portable cookers that hadn't been used for ages failed consistently due to moisture. Most schools wanted to keep them even if they only saw occasional use, and we found that by buying new elements in bulk and getting a hefty discount, it was quicker and cheaper to change them on spec than to fiddle around testing, baking, retesting. They used to send the cookers back to the workshop and I got very adept at changing them. Even while offering an excellent rate for the service 40% lower than any competitor, if I did them myself I could earn more per hour turning those cookers around than pretty much anything else I've ever done on the tools.
 
I had one recently tripping an RCD and the reading started at 0.46 Mohms and dropped and dropped, and after a few seconds it had halved. That, coupled with the fact the RCD was tripping instantly was enough for me to declare an element fault, but it was under warranty so I didn't dig further.
I'm not trying to hijack the thread but as an aside I was unexpectedly back at this one today.
A chap came out, didn't dismantle it, put a plug on it, PAT tested it, and reckoned it was fine.
I'd left a note with home owner saying "an insulation resistance test at 250v and 500v L+N to E showed 0.3M and falling. Concluded fault with oven". Apparently this didn't mean anything at all to the repair guy.
He also wasn't allowed to reconnect it so I got called back.

Magically the same test today was giving >299M when I re-checked it. I also ramp tested the RCD and it was 23ma both before and after the oven was reconnected. Before it was instantly tripping without any elements on, in fact it's a gas oven with only one grill element and electric ignition.
So either he unwittingly fixed something, or he wasn't telling the whole story, or there's a very mysterious intermittent fault.
Luckily the customer was interested enough to have watched the tests the first time around.
 

Reply to Is 0.15M ohms N - E a fault on a cooker? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

News and Offers from Sponsors

  • Article
Join us at electronica 2024 in Munich! Since 1964, electronica has been the premier event for technology enthusiasts and industry professionals...
    • Like
Replies
0
Views
378
  • Sticky
  • Article
Good to know thanks, one can never have enough places to source parts from!
Replies
4
Views
951
  • Article
OFFICIAL SPONSORS These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then...
Replies
0
Views
1K

Similar threads

  • Question
There could also be a completely unsuitable junction box embedded within the wall and tiled over or just cables in choc blocks in old accessory...
Replies
6
Views
989

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top