Is there a chance Dual RCD Consumers could be "banned " from rentals soon?

[LukeD]

Client has purchased a night flat in Edinburgh. Its perfect for using as a ST rental during the festival as the agents claim £6k a week is the value based on rooms and location. It was nicely decorated in 2018 and has a twin RCD Board . Wiring etc etc looks very good .Its a tidy install , sockets etc all good . Worth leaving as it is or will he hit a "wall" in the next few years with new regs about not having RCBO board do you thinK ? IT has a FRESH EICR that showed no issues .But recommended a board swap . He has plans to remodel it in 5-7 years and will be doing a full rewire etc etc then .

 

[timhoward]

One of the big plus-points of the Hager AFDD is the bluetooth diagnostics and/or firmware updates for the devices. If something has occasional trips you really will struggle to get to the bottom of it as no MFT (to my knowledge) offer any independent means of testing an AFDD - we are expected to take the self-test as gospel.

Agreed. I love the concept and Hager have definitely got this bit correct.
Whether it actually detects arcs in the first place in another question... and as you say we have no choice but to trust the manufacturers!

Those videos were quite concerned im not sure I would specify Hagar after that when the Fusebox and Siemens seemed to work fine , while his testing was not that scientific I would have expected a trip with the series arc test

The issue with Fusebox seems to be that you have mere seconds to find out what caused the last trip.
I'm sure that as this technology matures things will improve.

 

[loz2754]

One of the big plus-points of the Hager AFDD is the bluetooth diagnostics and/or firmware updates for the devices. If something has occasional trips you really will struggle to get to the bottom of it as no MFT (to my knowledge) offer any independent means of testing an AFDD - we are expected to take the self-test as gospel.

On the face of it the Bluetooth sounds like a good idea. But you watch David Savery take apart the Hager rep at the Elex show in Coventry! He makes some very good points, also in the follow up videos.
One point being - who is going to take on responsibility for applying the firmware updates to every AFDD they have fitted?
Another one being - the diagnostic tool is supposed to show the time the device tripped.
It doesn't, just how much time has elapsed since the last trip.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Even those manufacturers whose wares have traditionally been aimed at the continental European market are moving to single module RCBOs which switch both lines.

I like the compact form of our boards, although two row is becoming a more popular choice to fit as consumers demand more complex installations. For the average home a single row board can provide adequate ways, but architects/ builders often still need to better consider placement of boards.

I have been out of the game too long, did not know about single module RCBO's that switch both lines, or bluetooth diagnostics too them, but do agree on the placement of boards being something that needs to be addressed, perhaps legislated or at least picked up in the OSG/Building Regulations.

 

[pirate]

I think the bluetooth idea on the Hager AFDDs may well be a way forward, but as Mr Savery experienced, it's no use having bluetooth tech built in if the AFDD doesn't actually work. His testing technique may be open to question, but his test rig caused the Fusebox and Siemens ones to trip. A visible arc such as he created would seem to me to be precisely what the device is supposed to detect, and thus I would be reluctant to install a Hager one until I was shown convincing evidence that it worked. Despite some of his caustic comments, he did not say Hager stuff is all rubbish...indeed he was careful not to do that, but it seems odd that the other brands worked and hager's didn't, thus suggesting that hager have unfortunately not got that particular item right.

 

[brianmoooore]

, while his testing was not that scientific

Shouldn't need to be. These things need to work under ALL arc conditions serious enough to cause a danger, not just arcs created in defined conditions.

 

[DPG]

I think the bluetooth idea on the Hager AFDDs may well be a way forward, but as Mr Savery experienced, it's no use having bluetooth tech built in if the AFDD doesn't actually work. His testing technique may be open to question, but his test rig caused the Fusebox and Siemens ones to trip. A visible arc such as he created would seem to me to be precisely what the device is supposed to detect, and thus I would be reluctant to install a Hager one until I was shown convincing evidence that it worked. Despite some of his caustic comments, he did not say Hager stuff is all rubbish...indeed he was careful not to do that, but it seems odd that the other brands worked and hager's didn't, thus suggesting that hager have unfortunately not got that particular item right.

To be fair, Hager's testing methodologies and equipment will be a lot more advanced than Dave's. And that's no disrespect to Dave - I'm a big fan of his stuff.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Do we really need bluetooth connections to our consumer units, are we in danger of becoming too high tech, its only wires and stuff.

Apologies to the contributor who use's that last sentence as his by line.

 

[brianmoooore]

Do we really need bluetooth connections to our consumer units, are we in danger of becoming too high tech, its only wires and stuff.

Apologies to the contributor who use's that last sentence as his by line.

Bring back the rewireable fuse!

 

[pc1966]

Do we really need bluetooth connections to our consumer units, are we in danger of becoming too high tech, its only wires and stuff.

I am happy with such diagnostics (assuming no stupid charges to use them) because often you get to a problem and nobody knows quite when or how it happened.

That is very different from having always-on stuff that opens you to hacking and surveillance...

 

[Mikegh]

I am happy with such diagnostics (assuming no stupid charges to use them) because often you get to a problem and nobody knows quite when or how it happened.

That is very different from having always-on stuff that opens you to hacking and surveillance...

Has to be the way forward when you think about it

No reason to continue with dumb devices that just trip and that's all you know

 

[Mike Johnson]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

 

[Mikegh]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

Could be eventually the boards will refuse to re-energize the circuits unless you've done(or paid for) what the manufacturer says

 

[timhoward]

AI diagnostics could end up doing away with the electrician completely and just the need for a fitter to correct the fault already highlighted by the AI.

Well that is essentially how main dealer garages work.
You've conjured up an image that we'll turn up, plug a scanner into the CU, and see

 

[LukeD]

One of the big plus-points of the Hager AFDD is the bluetooth diagnostics and/or firmware updates for the devices. If something has occasional trips you really will struggle to get to the bottom of it as no MFT (to my knowledge) offer any independent means of testing an AFDD - we are expected to take the self-test as gospel.

That slipped my mind... Ok , we all spend a fortune on another new MFT !!!

 

[nicebutdim]

Well that is essentially how main dealer garages work.
You've conjured up an image that we'll turn up, plug a scanner into the CU, and see
View attachment 110893

I tend to agree that a lot of mechanics have become more like fitters than they ought to be, but the fault finding process can be quite complex. In franchised dealerships they must follow manufacturer guidance or risk not being paid in full for warrantable work. Small garages rely on less complex software, but that's were the skill of fault finding comes to the fore. Most (non-OE) diagnostic software will tell you the area in which a fault has been detected, but not what the actual fault is. It takes skill to know when to replace parts and when that fault code is leading the mechanic to a really simple wiring fault. There's a special place in hell for mechanics who blindly follow fault codes and needlessly throw part after part at vehicles in a desperate attempt at fixing them.