UK Job quotes vs DIY Part P Notification Requirements for bathrooms

[ninemaverickbars]

Hello everyone,

I hope nobody minds that my first post is a question. We have a bit of a situation brewing at home with regards to our new shower room. We had an electrician scheduled to come as part of the bathroom installation, but he had to give backword. As the electrics are now holding up the overall project, I contacted a couple of other local pro's, who returned quotes which I found to be rather high, so I am considering doing the work myself.

The work involves replacing 3 switches, installing 3 or 4 LED downlights and drivers replacing halogen, one extractor fan off a fused spur (existing), a single shaver socket replacement and thats about it. Most of the wiring is already in place and is suitable according my what I can understand from the regs. The quotes came in at £880+VAT and £420+VAT, labour and cable only. To me, that suggests they simply didn't want the job, or am I out of touch with rates?

Can I do this myself? I have the knowledge to do it properly (I believe) but the sticking point is that it is in a "special area" according to Part P. That is to say, one of the downlights will be within 600mm of the showerhead. The fittings are IP44 rated but I plan to replace the closest fitting with an IP65/7 once I can locate a suitable matching fitting. I believe IP44 is compliant, as a minimum.

If I go ahead and do this myself, can I notify building control to get an inspection certificate or am I putting myself in a difficult position, legally speaking for when we eventually come to sell the house?

I'm not penny pinching, but the quotes seemed so extreme, that I at least have to consider the option of a DIY install. Electrical installs, along with gas, are an area of DIY where I'm extremely cautious, because if I had gaps in my knowledge, I wouldn't be aware of them.

I have another chap coming next week who's NICEIC and depending on his price he might end up doing it, but I just want to backstop the whole thing, if that makes sense.

I'd appreciate any feedback on the above if anyone has time.

Thank you.

 

[philectrical]

I hope you dont mind me asking another question, but it just occurred to me, as it stands now one of the upstairs lighting circuits isn't working because a switch has been removed on the lighting ring during demolition. The split is just terminated at each side with Wago spring lever connectors at the moment.

Before the electrician visits, I'd like to reconnect that so we can see what we are doing without using torches.

Could I ask what is the correct way to permanently connect twin core and earth together? I was going to use a 10amp choc box (6A MCB). Assuming this is screwed down and out of the way, is this suitable?

Pulling a completely new cable would be a major upheaval so if we can join, it would be a relief.

Thanks again and yes, knowing ones own limitations is important and electricals aren't suitable for mucking about with, in my view.

I'm not sure how the cable has been left from your description, but to connect wire you can use 'wago' connectors with a sealed wago junction box.

All the separate colours go together in their own separate wagos, so one wago with the earths, one with the neutrals, one with the lives, put them inside the box, fix the box to something and seal closed.

You can get away with just the wagos but you shouldn't technically do this. If the connection is going to be permanent just buy the wago box it's like 2 quid.

Just an fyi, lights aren't in rings they are radials.

 

[telectrix]

mate of mine, also a forum member is in Leeds. NICEIC approved and he would give you an honest, sensible quote. pm me and i'll pass his number on.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

mate of mine, also a forum member is in Leeds. NICEIC approved and he would give you an honest, sensible quote. pm me and i'll pass his number on.

Thank you @telectrix , I will do pending outcome of tomorrows visit.

@philectrical Cheers for the advice. It's all sorted and yes, radials, makes sense. More like a tree structure and less like a circle (sockets)?

I've spent the afternoon on more research and removed a circuit I put in 15 years ago as a young lad. Evidently I didn't have any earth sleeving at the time, so glad thats come out too. I'd used electricians tape to wrap the earth.

As a side note, we also solved the mystery of why electric toothbrushes would never charge properly in the bathroom. Turns out the bloody extractor fan and shaver socket were fused together on a 3a spur. As theres a velux, we rarely used the fan...lol

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Ok if it's all open and you just want cables putting in then it's half a days work.

Bare in mind though that any spark worth his salt will do some testing too so that adds to the cost, and it looks like you want around 9 points doing, and a lot of people charge per point. Can be anywhere from £30-£75 per point on average from what i've seen so those prices you were quoted seem about right.

It's looks dear for what it is i agree but when you break it down it's not actually that bad.

The problem with electrics is it looks like not much has changed and so people can't understand why it costs so much.

You can put a hole in the wall for an extension, or get some kitchen units put in, or your central heating to start working again, it's a tangible difference and people don't mind paying for it. With electric though, everything 'looks like it works' and then you change a consumer unit or swap some lights out and you just have what you had before on the surface of it and so people complain about the cost!

I will probably go against the grain on here and say there's nothing difficult about what you want to do and you could easily do it yourself if you do your research prior and do some thorough swatting up on the science and principles behind circuits and the big do's and don'ts. However i would still get someone in to test before you work, because things might not be what they seem electrically with the existing circuitry.

Remember though that if you want to go 'by the book' you'll have to notify building control and that'll be another huge fee on top which makes doing it yourself economically unviable. Just better to get a spark in to do it.

Can I ask what you mean by an individual "point". Does this mean for example, a 1 way 1 gang switch, single socket, or would a single "point" encompass say, a 3 gang switch?

I have no problem at all with paying for skilled electricians but yes, its in some cases invisible work so I can see why some people might grumble. I was a computer network administrator for a lot of years, which was similarly invisible to the end user.

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

 

[nicebutdim]

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

No amount of training or certification will get around the issue of notification. Electricians face the same fees and either pay LABC directly or join a scheme such as NICEIC or Napit, through whom they can issue required notification.

 

[philectrical]

Can I ask what you mean by an individual "point". Does this mean for example, a 1 way 1 gang switch, single socket, or would a single "point" encompass say, a 3 gang switch?

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

I saw the building control fee's, which are quite high. To be honest, I might just get some training and end up doing part P myself just for personal use, especially since work can probably be persuaded to pay for it. Wouldn't make me competant on its own, I realise. Two or three LABC fees and it's not far off paid for itself. Plus, it's very interesting stuff, although I think I'm a bit long in the tooth to be going for full registration.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

No amount of training or certification will get around the issue of notification. Electricians face the same fees and either pay LABC directly or join a scheme such as NICEIC or Napit, through whom they can issue required notification.

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

 

[ninemaverickbars]

For me, each individual operating point is a point. So a 3 gang switch would be 3 points since they have to have 3 wires. 2 way switches would be 2 points even if they only operate the one light for example.

You can't really 'do part p'. Part P is just building regs and there's no course designed to become electrically competent and 'Part P qualified'. Some courses claim 'get Part P qualified' but they're scams. You won't be able to self certify after taking any 'Part P' course - you can only self certify if under a CPS scheme and they only let you on with 2 years experience (post qualifications) now if i recall correctly.

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

 

[SJD]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[nicebutdim]

So the electrician who quoted us £420 was facing fee's of around £250 from LABC? Have I understood correctly?

See below

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

 

[ninemaverickbars]

Notification fee via a scheme (NICEIC, NAPIT) is just a few £, but there are annual membership fees of circa £600 to be able to do this.

Direct notification via LABC is often quite costly (many £ hundreds), as generally they want to discourage this. In some cases, set as high as they dare in the hope nobody goes down that route.

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Now I might have a bit of a moan directed towards the ether

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

 

[nicebutdim]

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

Unfortunately, nothing seems particularly unusual about the above

 

[philectrical]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

There is no 'part p' that you can have that will allow you to notify. There's the C&G 2393-10 which is a building regs qualification but it doesn't mean the guy is competent, doesn't mean he's trained, and doesn't allow him to notify without paying building control. The likelihood is he wasn't going to notify at all.

Proper qualified electricians who have every single qualification and have done an apprenticeship (easily encapsulating the building regs and 'part p') aren't even allowed to notify. You can only notify without paying the big building control fee if you're part of a scheme.

 

[philectrical]

As far as I know, the plumber wouldn't have been qualified to notify via NICEIC or NAPIT. Don't they require apprenticeship training or similar? I'm dragging this thread quite a bit off topic now to be fair, so I'll go off and do some research.

Before September last year anyone who'd done a 6 week course and gotten their Level 3 was being accepted onto the schemes. Basically you could have gone to a training provider, coughed up around £5k, done a 6 week course with no prior knowledge and then straight out to join the scheme. The rules, i believe, have just changed to make it a lot harder to join. No more 'domestic installer' course graduates are eligible to join the schemes, as far as i'm aware. However it may be the case that those who did a domestic installer course and are already registered might be able to carry on their membership.

If the direct notification fee's are so inflated, no wonder we see so much property at work (construction/development) that isn't certified. To be quite honest, even my own house, a build from 2005 by Ben Bailey, absolutely doesn't comply with building regs in multiple areas and would certainly fail LABC inspection. It was probably done under type approval and is shoddy, to say the least. Actually, I'm being kind, the standard of build is so outrageously poor.

That's just new builds for you i'm afraid. The electrics are always done by qualified people but they are lashed in because the money is either crap or they're on a price and wanting to get as much in as possible as quickly as possible.

It's also the case that the firms building these places want them to pass inspection so will often hide defects so building control will give them the paperwork on time. They're under huge pressure to deliver and get clients into the houses on time. The overall standard of workmanship from every trade on new builds is appalling and that's putting it mildly. I know because i grew up labouring on them and then advanced onto doing the snagging for them. We're talking pots put under taps behind bath panels to catch leaks instead of fixing them. We're talking gluing sinks down with just clear silicone without the clips because it's quicker. We're talking roof strapping not fixed down. We're talking guttering where only half the clips are actually screwed home. Appalling.

As one example, as part of this project, after taking down a plasterboard ceiling we found a roof joist without a hanger on one end. They had tacked the hanger up, but forgotten to install it, so there was literally a free range roof joist above our bathroom. Also, we have found huge circular holes cut through i-joist web, non reinforced notches in the i-joist flanges, ridiculous plumbing, electrical cables running diagonally behind plasterboard. The list is endless. To cap it all, the flooring turned out to be chipboard glued and nailed directly to ijoists, which, as you probably know, dear reader, have flanges made of laminated wood (ply), so use of glue is an absolute disaster.

Sounds normal.

As a result, I trust nothing in our house anymore and honestly believe that anything I personally do, is an upgrade on what was originally installed. I do at least know how to terminate a cable and the basic principles of continuity testing etc. I am also cautious, which is an attribute I'd expect electricians to be familiar with. lol

You guys are like gold, honestly. I really appreciate your help in understanding things. I'm sure I'll get there, one day.

I'm all for guys wanting to learn and i'm not so heavily leaning on the side of 'you must get a spark in for everything' like some. At the end of the day it's not difficult work, it's very easy to ensure you're doing a safe job but some stuff does come only with experience.

Wiring up a circuit isn't hard, and it's not inherently dangerous if you follow a few basic principles. A lot of stuff against the regs isn't inherently dangerous, it's just against regs. There's a difference.

If you do want to learn i'd say the first thing is, get a voltage and continuity tester, one with prongs, and use it on every single circuit you are going to touch even if the consumer unit is off at the mains. I have a friend who put his hand behind a board and grabbed a cable and got a belt because it was an old feed from elsewhere.

The main problem you'll have is if you're modifying circuits you really need to know what the circuit is already doing before you can modify it. Sometimes it'll look like part of a ring but it might be a spur.

Take my kitchen for example. It was on a 32a breaker, two legs into the breaker, all neutrals present. Only had 3 sockets in the kitchen, two doubles and one single. Pull the fronts off, and every socket had one cable to it. Luckily i could pull floors up because i was remodelling and it turns out they'd put both legs to a junction box and just spur'd off for each socket and essentially just run 2x 2.5mm cable to an arbitrary place and then run radials from that, completely pointless. I wouldn't have been able to add several sockets more to any of the sockets.

Little things like that.

 

[Markyd]

The chap who was originally going to do the work was a plumber (who has part P we were told) working for a main contractor. I'm confused as to how that would be possible given what you've said, but the main contractor is reputable.

I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle, which isn't unusual, at least according to my wife.

A plumber?....would you ask a sparky to fit a new boiler? ....£420 for that job you should bite his hand off