Kitchen appliances

[Gra426]

Hi,

I am in the process of a kitchen rewire. The kitchen is fully integrated and my interpretation of the regs is that all appliances should have accessible means of isolation. Does this mean that all switches have to be mounted at counter level or can they be concealed i.e inside or above cabinets.

Cheers in advance.

Gra.

 

[rich.250]

They should be readily accessible.
So yeh in a cupboard isn't a issue if there not buried away at the back.

You could just put sockets in the cupboards in accessible places. Then no need for isolation switches.

 

[Strima]

They must be accessible, I tend to avoid placing in cabinets due to the amount of stuff most people try to cram in them and when you need to get to the switch quickly it normally ends in a shower of blenders and bread makers. Above the cabinets are often a pain to reach and after a few years end up getting coated on a mixture of cooking fat and dust.

Another option is a panel grid switch to centralise the whole lot.

 

[sedgy34]

They should be readily accessible.
So yeh in a cupboard isn't a issue if there not buried away at the back.

You could just put sockets in the cupboards in accessible places. Then no need for isolation switches.

Do as the above it will cost less too & save on hassle of isolation points above the work tops

 

[Gra426]

To be honest I like the grid switch idea. It keeps things tidy and also highlights the permitted zones for the wiring.

Thanks.

Gra.

 

[sedgy34]

To be honest I like the grid switch idea. It keeps things tidy and also highlights the permitted zones for the wiring.

Thanks.

Gra.

yeh i agree theres a few ways of doing it

 

[D Skelton]

The only things that need to have a readily accessible means of switching off are fixed electrical motors. Technically, unless you have any fixed electrical motors in a kitchen (which some may interpret to mean motors within appliances that are built in) then you don't need to shove SFCU's everywhere above your worktop.

That said, it's good practice.

I often opt for the labelled 20A DP isolators as opposed to SFCU's as I think it looks swankier. Alternatively, as others have said, a centralised grid switch is often a nice touch.

Remember tho, the regs are in black and white, and there is often a lot of misinterpretation when it comes to providing accessible means of switching off for non-fixed appliances.

 

[Amp David]

Did one week before last and installed DP switches using the Click Mini Grid range.
Went to look at another kitchen last week and she didn't want extra switches above worktop level, so opted for switched sockets in the base units.

IMO opinion, I think that using grid units makes for a better job, but at the end of the day, its whatever the customer wants.

The only isolator I won't put into a cupboard is for the the cooker.

 

[ackbarthestar]

There are some issues with using grid switches where several high load appliances are supplied from on point on a rfc.
You need to make sure that the input terminals are rated for at least 20A, possibly more, dependent upon the way way the ring is configured.
The biggest problem will be heat generated at the switch terminal due to loose connections and not enough room in the backing box to get 5 2.5mm2 cables plus linking wires across the input terminals.

Its good practice to supply local isolation and fusing. whether or not you choose
1/ SFCU with flex outlet
2/ 20A Isolator with socket outlet
3/ Accessible Switched socket outlet.

Sometimes with fitted integrated units you do not have room for the plug/socket combination, so the plug has to be cut. In which case a sfcu may be required.
Not that a local DB loaded with RCBOs/MCBs wouldn't do the job.....

 

[Guitarist]

If it's fully integrated then the likelihood is that there will be NO room at all behind the appliance for anything. Personally, I prefer a 20 DP switch or SFCU supplying a socket in the cupboard adjacent to the appliance. I like to keep my sockets in the wall as standard with the back of the cupboard cut out, then bring the appliance lead up to it. This way, you have the electrics kept in the building fabric along with local isolation and no need to remove any plugs.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Electrically, I would agree with this but a lot of customers do not want their stainless steel / granite / marble work tops defaced by trailing leads coming out of holes in the work surface.

If you get the chance of a fresh new build kitchen then I would run radials in trunking buried in the plaster behind the tiling with the backing boxes as part of the trunking. Drop the Drop the radials to skt/flex outlets in plastic conduit. It costs more but looks and feels pretty impressive.

Oh by the way, I don't work for cheap builders or B&Q / Argos / screwfit kitchen fitters.

 

[Sav]

I would never suggest that you cut off any plug tops off any appliance, as this would in validate any warranty on that appliance.

Sav

 

[ackbarthestar]

How many kitchens have we decimated the plugs off of the cable so we could finish the £20k kitchen ? ! When you fit high quality kitchens you don't fit non working appliances.

Its always a good idea to test the appliances before they go in.

 

[Sav]

How many kitchens have we decimated the plugs off of the cable so we could finish the £20k kitchen ? ! When you fit high quality kitchens you don't fit non working appliances.

Its always a good idea to test the appliances before they go in.

So what happens if the appliance fails in 3 or 4 months time and Mr home owner is chasing you to buy him a new one, because the manufacturer will not replace it, due to you hacking off the plug top??
Bad practice in my opinion.
I think you should be able to design your installation, so that any outlets are not interfering when the appliances are pushed back into their positions?

Sav

 

[ackbarthestar]

When working with fully integrated appliances you are at the mercy of the kitchen design which often doesn't allow enough space at the back of the units.
We all know that's its a cop out by the appliance suppliers to refuse a faulty unit when the plug is removed but then you have to push your point home and as a fully competent sparks you can usually get things sorted.

 

[Engineer54]

I would never suggest that you cut off any plug tops off any appliance, as this would in validate any warranty on that appliance.

Sav

How many more times!!!! NO IT Doesn't!!!

 

[mickys86]

How many more times!!!! NO IT Doesn't!!!

Just to clarify, where do we stand on this. A guy I work with is adamant that it invalidates the warranty. If I tell him it doesn't I'm going to need more than "a guy off the Internet told me"

 

[DaveyD]

Just to clarify, where do we stand on this. A guy I work with is adamant that it invalidates the warranty. If I tell him it doesn't I'm going to need more than "a guy off the Internet told me"

I think if you mention E54 told you - he will know, he will understand and that is enough. Either that; or if your guy has number dyslexia you will have a nice discussion about body cream and soreness.

 

[Darkwood]

I would never suggest that you cut off any plug tops off any appliance, as this would in validate any warranty on that appliance.

Sav

This point has already been covered in other threads and NO!!!!! it dosn't invalidate the warranty, if changed or fitted to fcu by a competent person, in the event of a fault on the appliance a cover note from the electrician that it was done by himself and tested will normally do, some firms out there though will try it on and you need to get an independant technician to confirm the item hadn't gone faulty due to an incorrectly fitted plug or flex termination.
I tend to explain this to customers some dont like the thought of the hassle and some are happy to chop the plug off knowing it may be not so straight forward if it goes faulty.

 

[Engineer54]

Just to clarify, where do we stand on this. A guy I work with is adamant that it invalidates the warranty. If I tell him it doesn't I'm going to need more than "a guy off the Internet told me"

Don't for god's sake take my word for it , ...or this guy at work, get your own legal advise!!

But... i can assure you, that any connection of a domestic appliance that complies with BS 7671 in the UK, cannot invalidate a warranty, if that connection necessitates the removal of a factory fitted moulded socket!!! I work with contractual (lawful) matters on a day to day basis and have done so for years. The main culprit for coming out with all this crap, is the warranty service providers (not the actual manufacturers) that are looking for any excuse not to fulfill responsibilities....

 

[Darkwood]

If you want to ensure it has no comeback i also PAT test any appliance that i cut a moulded plug off, i have my 2377 C&G and if any customer has issues with the policy on an appliance then im always happy ring the warranty company myself on their behalf, i talk firmly and dont take any bull by any misleading carefully worded replies, like E54 says its the warranty service providers who are trained to try avoid paying out and most ppl just get fobbed off.
Ive had a computer and stereo system replaced 2yrs after the 12month warranty ran out because i know how to use the system and i will never waste my money on extended warranty options as you already legally are covered but hey! thats a totally different thread altogether.

 

[mickys86]

Ive had a computer and stereo system replaced 2yrs after the 12month warranty ran out because i know how to use the system and i will never waste my money on extended warranty options as you already legally are covered but hey! thats a totally different thread altogether.

Sounds like an interesting read......

 

[Darkwood]

Sounds like an interesting read......

Without going too indepth the consumers rights act 1979 has a clause stressing that any goods bought should give a reasonable service life, so if your warranty is one yr and on yr 3 your washer timer board goes faulty then firstly you get an independent engineer report expressing the part that is faulty is due to part alone malfuctioning before its expected lifespan and it also need to show that its not because of consumer mis-use or damage. After they accept this report they will then take the appliance etc for their own team to fault and if you are honest it should show the same verdict, part or product then replaced and sometimes all your cost of independant engineer too.

The grey area is life expectancy; up to 4yrs your usually ok but i believe 6yrs is the cutoff point and over 4yrs this is where its harder to fight your case and whether the possible cost and time are even worth it, but some products by there nature are harder to prove they weren't abused or miss-used than others.

 

[ackbarthestar]

I agree, If the removal of the moulded plug is performed by a competent electrician or something of comparable stature then your friends down at the discount store have to behave and fulfill their obligations.

I've had a couple who have refused to remove old appliances, i have one going at the present, They send drivers out, just like meter readers, who feel privileged to be wearing the corporate uniform and endowed with super-stupid powers. You phone up their managers and heyho they reappear again, just like magic.

 

[johnusher]

Switches should be inside cabinets because of kids. :90: I've the same wiring in my kitchen.

 

[Robinwood]

They should be readily accessible.
So yeh in a cupboard isn't a issue if there not buried away at the back.

You could just put sockets in the cupboards in accessible places. Then no need for isolation switches.

This is the best idea, you can use it. It costs less!!

 

[Engineer54]

Switches should be inside cabinets because of kids. :90: I've the same wiring in my kitchen.

This is the best idea, you can use it. It costs less!!

Heard all this crap before....

If i was having a brand new kitchen fitted and an electrician started talking about fixing switches and socket outlets and the like in the cabinets, he would be off the job quicker than he walked in...

The only people that don't want to see any electrical accessories on the wall above the worktop, (where they should be!!) are those that have no idea about how a kitchen functions, those that don't particularly have much use for a kitchen, and those solely interested in impressing friends and relatives with a picture perfect look. ALL will come to regret not having readily accessible switches and socket outlets where they should be....

 

[digitalspace]

I'm thinking he meant sockets solely for the integrated appliances, being put inside cupboards etc, not that ALL sockets should be hidden away from the worktop (do people actually request this?!)