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Not everyone who voted SNP wants to leave the UK.
Yep,I agree- lets settle it with a referendum as circumstances have changed.
Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.
Yes it was mentioned but seemed unrealistic.
Even Ruth Davidson said do in a TV debate
Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.
Sorry- the SNP want independence (many people are also surprised to know that bears $hit in the woods as well)
We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.
Yep and we were told a pack of lies in the VOW (near federalism as possible), we ended up getting full control of road signs, 15% of welfare benefits - the ATOS ran pile of poo, and control of income tax - earned income only.
For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.
I disagree, we need more powers- it is notable that every time support for independence seems to rise the 'federalism' stories appear.
All we need is Gordon Brown out of his crypt to tell us how lucky we are
Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.
The Scottish Government have done better than the UK government see the post on poverty (already posted earlier) below.
Scotland is ran better and the SNP have got on with the day job
Thousands of council houses (over 1400 in my local authority alone),
NHS procurement Scotland -the Scottish Government require health boards to work together (unlike the NHS video earlier of things in other parts of the UK)
Keeping the nurses bursary
Scottish Futures Trust - remember as we are beholden to UK procurement rules we MUST use PFI (and it's problems), the Scottish Government set up Scottish Futures Trust - a SG owned and managed PFI -Lite organisation to cap excess costs and return profits back to the Scottish Government.
The problem is the Scottish Government are better at running things than Westminster and people fail to notice the better infrastructure (such as broadband roll out)
www.ispreview.co.uk
Yep,I agree- lets settle it with a referendum as circumstances have changed.
Brexit was a on the cards before the Indyref.
Yes it was mentioned but seemed unrealistic.
Even Ruth Davidson said do in a TV debate
Promoters of Indyref2 are banging on about it incessantly in the hope of getting their own way at a time when nearly everyone is disillusioned with politics. Traditionally a time when people vote for odd things.
Sorry- the SNP want independence (many people are also surprised to know that bears $hit in the woods as well)
We had a referendum and we voted to stay in the UK.
Yep and we were told a pack of lies in the VOW (near federalism as possible), we ended up getting full control of road signs, 15% of welfare benefits - the ATOS ran pile of poo, and control of income tax - earned income only.
For me that's enough time and effort wasted on it for now.
I disagree, we need more powers- it is notable that every time support for independence seems to rise the 'federalism' stories appear.
All we need is Gordon Brown out of his crypt to tell us how lucky we are
Perhaps the politicians we elected should spend their time and effort dealing with the clear social problems we have in Scotland and less time blaming someone else.
The Scottish Government have done better than the UK government see the post on poverty (already posted earlier) below.
Scotland is ran better and the SNP have got on with the day job
Thousands of council houses (over 1400 in my local authority alone),
NHS procurement Scotland -the Scottish Government require health boards to work together (unlike the NHS video earlier of things in other parts of the UK)
Keeping the nurses bursary
Scottish Futures Trust - remember as we are beholden to UK procurement rules we MUST use PFI (and it's problems), the Scottish Government set up Scottish Futures Trust - a SG owned and managed PFI -Lite organisation to cap excess costs and return profits back to the Scottish Government.
The problem is the Scottish Government are better at running things than Westminster and people fail to notice the better infrastructure (such as broadband roll out)
Scotland Pick BT for Part of £600m Superfast Broadband Rollout
The Scottish Government today announced that BT is their ONLY bidder for two of the three areas under the new £600m R100 (Reaching 100%) project, which origina
www.ispreview.co.uk
So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
Fair enough. It's good to be passionate about something.
If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
Presumably that's Westminsters fault though.
If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
I won't hold my breath though.
Fair enough. It's good to be passionate about something.
If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
Presumably that's Westminsters fault though.
If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
I won't hold my breath though.
So to sum up.. You didn't get your own way and you will keep banging on about it until you do?
It's all about democracy- we have a Scottish Parliament and it should decide our future, its not about 'banging on' it's about Scots electing MSP's and these same MSP's expressing the will of these Scots in a proportional type system.
No, I want independence for Scotland, and I know that the moment the SNP are a means to an end.
Once we get independence the SNP will be out on their ear and we can vote for a Scottish Government to run our affairs and kick them out if we don't like them.
At the moment we vote Labour / SNP and get Tory.
If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
They are doing better than the lot in Westminster by a country mile but if they fail we can kick them out.
Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
I know, this is a failing. it is not only Westminsters fault although if the Scottish budget had not been cut by £1.5 bn per year things might be better.
If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
They are trying- there are police officers in most secondary schools full time and there is also a plan to put mental health nurses / therapists in to schools to help treat issues before they become a problem
You need to accept that a large driver of depression and mental illness is poverty and austerity is a Westminster driven issue and not a necessity.
If you have no money to feed and heat a home then mental problems will surface and worsen
It's all about democracy- we have a Scottish Parliament and it should decide our future, its not about 'banging on' it's about Scots electing MSP's and these same MSP's expressing the will of these Scots in a proportional type system.
No, I want independence for Scotland, and I know that the moment the SNP are a means to an end.
Once we get independence the SNP will be out on their ear and we can vote for a Scottish Government to run our affairs and kick them out if we don't like them.
At the moment we vote Labour / SNP and get Tory.
If you think that somehow the SNP are less full of it than any other politicians then you are looking through rose tinted spectacles.
They are doing better than the lot in Westminster by a country mile but if they fail we can kick them out.
Mental health care and social problems in Scotland are amongst the worst in Europe.
I know, this is a failing. it is not only Westminsters fault although if the Scottish budget had not been cut by £1.5 bn per year things might be better.
If the SNP can get that sorted I'll vote for them and whatever they stand for.
They are trying- there are police officers in most secondary schools full time and there is also a plan to put mental health nurses / therapists in to schools to help treat issues before they become a problem
You need to accept that a large driver of depression and mental illness is poverty and austerity is a Westminster driven issue and not a necessity.
If you have no money to feed and heat a home then mental problems will surface and worsen
Well... that one is easily solved... can you give back to England the 9.4 BILLION a year extra that we give to Scotland ? That would help to make things more equal.
And... thinking about it... surely the whole of the UK should have a vote on Scottish independence and the breaking up of the union ?
Are you Nicola sturgeon in disguise bald ? Should the SNP ever get what they wish for they would very quickly have to find another axe to grind in order to mask the disappointment. The snp are a pressure group more than a political movement. Alex Salmond the founder has created division and exploited nationalism to further his own agenda . The Scots are a very proud people and many see it for what it is .
The West Lothian question:
West Lothian question - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Lothian_question
Should the whole of Europe have a vote on Brexit?
Its the same principle.
It wouldn't have been a bad idea tbh because we would have been out a lot sooner . Europe wanted our contribution but not necessarily the uk .
D
Darkwood
At our Scottish friends,
There seems to be total confusion regarding the EU membership here, the SNP are in a catch 22 and always have been, if Scotland were to become independent then they cannot remain a member of the EU, this was applicable in 2014 and still is today (even if Brexit wasn't a factor), they would have to reapply yet they fail to meet the essential criteria to be allowed entry.
This is why the Scottish independence ref'1 was lost mainly because of what key players in Europe had made clear - Mr Van Rompuy, Mr Barosso and Mr Juncker all clearly stated that if Scotland went independent they would have to reapply through the the normal process, if this was to occur then any deal would be much less favourable than the ones they enjoy as part of the UK, also Barroso clearly stated Scotland rejoining the EU would be 'extremely difficult' - this was a reflection on their current economic status and GDP levels.
The SNP are playing a divisive game by claiming it is in fact the UK and Brexit is dragging them out of the EU against their will, it is the fact that the goal of the SNP would itself take them out of the EU with a very steep hill to climb to rejoin and that is also considering it would be a far less beneficial agreement (hope you like the impending acceptance of the Euro down that road).
The SNP are simply like UKIP - a one goal party but unlike UKIP the SNP's destination would cause an outcome they claim to stand against, the irony here is overwhelming and why trying to rally support by claiming that the UK is dragging them out of the EU is gross hypocrisy.
As I said earlier, now brexit is a definite there is no real option for the SNP - all paths lead to coming out of the EU what isn't true is Brexit alone is to blame, and independent Scotland would trigger the same outcome.
Here is a snippet of news from 2014 and where the EU clearly stood on an Independent Scotland - Juncker will respect Scottish result - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28231347
There seems to be total confusion regarding the EU membership here, the SNP are in a catch 22 and always have been, if Scotland were to become independent then they cannot remain a member of the EU, this was applicable in 2014 and still is today (even if Brexit wasn't a factor), they would have to reapply yet they fail to meet the essential criteria to be allowed entry.
This is why the Scottish independence ref'1 was lost mainly because of what key players in Europe had made clear - Mr Van Rompuy, Mr Barosso and Mr Juncker all clearly stated that if Scotland went independent they would have to reapply through the the normal process, if this was to occur then any deal would be much less favourable than the ones they enjoy as part of the UK, also Barroso clearly stated Scotland rejoining the EU would be 'extremely difficult' - this was a reflection on their current economic status and GDP levels.
The SNP are playing a divisive game by claiming it is in fact the UK and Brexit is dragging them out of the EU against their will, it is the fact that the goal of the SNP would itself take them out of the EU with a very steep hill to climb to rejoin and that is also considering it would be a far less beneficial agreement (hope you like the impending acceptance of the Euro down that road).
The SNP are simply like UKIP - a one goal party but unlike UKIP the SNP's destination would cause an outcome they claim to stand against, the irony here is overwhelming and why trying to rally support by claiming that the UK is dragging them out of the EU is gross hypocrisy.
As I said earlier, now brexit is a definite there is no real option for the SNP - all paths lead to coming out of the EU what isn't true is Brexit alone is to blame, and independent Scotland would trigger the same outcome.
Here is a snippet of news from 2014 and where the EU clearly stood on an Independent Scotland - Juncker will respect Scottish result - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28231347
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I am of the opinion that things will change next year
Wait until the start of February and see what happens, the UK is still a EU member. After 1st February the UK will no longer be so
Depends on which political rag you read, as to what Junckers thoughts are on an independent Scotland re-joining the EU. I can see it being vetoed by Spain, as they have the issue with Catalonia. That said there are a line of candidates wishing to join the EU, all on hold with 'issues'.
Truth is, like Brexit, the only way an independent Scotland will know, is have its indy2 and then ask to remain. Then it will know if it has to make an applicantion to the EU.
But Scotland hasn't the time left now, to do that.
D
Darkwood
The point to my post was the hypocritical position the SNP is in, they are playing mind games by trying to suggest the EU referendum vote is dragging them out of the EU against their will, while sitting and pushing an ideology that will achieve exactly the same.
This is why they cannot use it as a mandate for a second indy vote, also the fact in 2014 they used the possibility of the UK leaving the EU in their campaign and still lost, this strengthens my point.
Regarding the EU changing its position, why would they though, the UK is leaving and with that one of their largest financial contributors to the EU coffers, there are minimum requirements to join the EU mainly to ensure you are not a long term financial burden, Scotland has a massive deficit and comes no where near meeting this and given they have even less money now as well as major EU economies on the brink of recession like Germany then they have little incentive to give Scotland exception while other nations you mention still need to meet the requirements.
I will also throw another elephant into the room, lets say Scotland goes independent, they are going to have turn their economy around, catch up on their debts a bit and do all this while losing a massive chunk of money that the UK has been propping them up with for 30yrs, if they cannot turn their economy with the UK heavily supporting them, how do we see the future when that money stops flowing, the only silver lining here is they will probably get their fishing grounds back in the next few years and see that industry boom the irony been because we are out of the EU.
This is why they cannot use it as a mandate for a second indy vote, also the fact in 2014 they used the possibility of the UK leaving the EU in their campaign and still lost, this strengthens my point.
Regarding the EU changing its position, why would they though, the UK is leaving and with that one of their largest financial contributors to the EU coffers, there are minimum requirements to join the EU mainly to ensure you are not a long term financial burden, Scotland has a massive deficit and comes no where near meeting this and given they have even less money now as well as major EU economies on the brink of recession like Germany then they have little incentive to give Scotland exception while other nations you mention still need to meet the requirements.
I will also throw another elephant into the room, lets say Scotland goes independent, they are going to have turn their economy around, catch up on their debts a bit and do all this while losing a massive chunk of money that the UK has been propping them up with for 30yrs, if they cannot turn their economy with the UK heavily supporting them, how do we see the future when that money stops flowing, the only silver lining here is they will probably get their fishing grounds back in the next few years and see that industry boom the irony been because we are out of the EU.
Since this thread went this way, I've read of all sorts of facts & figures about how much is Scotland's GDP, how much the UK gives in grants or whatever the term is and how much the UK is Scotland's biggest receiver of goods, how much Scotland makes or not on oil revenue, fishers etc etc.
But they are all wildly differing in viewpoint, depending on the source of that information. So again, bit like Brexit, no one truly knows what would happen, until it happens.
But they are all wildly differing in viewpoint, depending on the source of that information. So again, bit like Brexit, no one truly knows what would happen, until it happens.
The numbers in the GERS figures are Jackanory fairy take ones.
The fact remains there are questions such as
Why are a Conservative Government so intent on keeping a partner they see as a financial drain.
This from 1921 - before oil
And more detail:
I smell fertiliser.
If Scots were really draining the UK and placing them in the financial soup then Westminster would drop Scotland like a hot potato
Remember if Boris let Scotland go this- and his boundary changes would make Westminster have an almost permanent conservative majority
The fact remains there are questions such as
Why are a Conservative Government so intent on keeping a partner they see as a financial drain.
This from 1921 - before oil
And more detail:
I smell fertiliser.
If Scots were really draining the UK and placing them in the financial soup then Westminster would drop Scotland like a hot potato
Remember if Boris let Scotland go this- and his boundary changes would make Westminster have an almost permanent conservative majority
There's no doubt that an independent Scotland that is a full member of the EU would have to surrender virtually all fiscal policy to Brussels in return for massive EU funding... On the EU graph of who are the net contributors/beneficiaries, Scotland would be right there next to Greece !
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Their full title is "The Conservative and Unionist Party"... the clue's in the name.
* Only when it suits Boris- remember he railed against a border in the Irish Sea with Theresa May and then threw the DUP under the bus to get an almost identical deal to the previous one he objected to
[automerge]1577624631[/automerge]
You are confusing EU membership with that of the Euro, Scotland cannot join the Euro after independence as it does not have its own currency
Once Scotland has her own currency it still cannot join the Euro- it has to joint he ERM first and joining the ERM is voluntary
D
Darkwood
Scotland's deficit and UK funding is easily sourced to view, when I discuss them it is based on Government and Treasury figures not news papers or party reports, there is absolutely no mistake about it that Scotland heavily relies on the UK and has done consistently for 30yrs, there is no arguing that Scotland's deficit is triple that of the UK.
In fact I was been very generous when I said triple as that reflected 2018-19 figures I was going to be harsh I would have quoted last yrs which makes the Scottish deficit 7 times larger than that of the UK although as well as the Scottish deficit rises, the UK went into surplus which explains the sudden rise to some extent.
Having said all this the Scottish get £1661 per person more than the UK average which has always made me wonder why the SNP exist if their goal is going to make everyone poorer instantly and remove and lose that vital financial support they rely on... I am all for a nation having its say but the reality should be made clear as it was in 2014 when Sturgeon failed on many occasions to answer these question and satisfy the public with the answers.
Here's where I get my info' - unless the Scottish government is fiddling the figures then I think it is a reliable non biased source, wouldn't you agree.
Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland 2018-2019 - gov.scot - https://www.gov.scot/news/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2018-19/
GERS is an estimate.
Almost all of the data parts are estimated
In this day and age where someone spending time at a desk ( with access to government data such as HMRC live data) could work out almost exactly how the money stack up.
Funny they have not done that ?
Almost all of the data parts are estimated
In this day and age where someone spending time at a desk ( with access to government data such as HMRC live data) could work out almost exactly how the money stack up.
Funny they have not done that ?
D
Darkwood
Show me in the history of these 'estimates' as you call them that they have been proven to be inaccurate, they are based on factual data and financial realtime figures, to call them out as estimates actually says nothing, if there exists enough info then even estimates can be extremely accurate, would you prefer I link to the HMRC's own figures which are consistently and pretty much the same?
It really seems you are looking to discredit anything that goes against your mindset here but only through opinion, please cite your next opinion with back up if you want to win my agreement.
Ps these are not estimates I posted, they are actual historical factual data hence they are not predicting next year.
It really seems you are looking to discredit anything that goes against your mindset here but only through opinion, please cite your next opinion with back up if you want to win my agreement.
Ps these are not estimates I posted, they are actual historical factual data hence they are not predicting next year.
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More info on GERS
From a pro indy site (they use external sources to back up data)
wingsoverscotland.com
From a pro indy site (they use external sources to back up data)
The six key facts about GERS (2018)
We’re just going to reprint this piece every year, because only the numbers change. Today saw the publication of the 2017-18 GERS stats, which are once again triggering a convulsive orgy of &…
wingsoverscotland.com
D
Darkwood
Oh dear, so rather than post HMRC's reflective comparative data you post one of the most biased nationalist reports, I'm sorry but this ain't going to win any discourse here, I now see why you are down the rabbit hole which is a shame, I was expecting something better, I agree in part about the national newspapers take on it been biased but that is not where I source my info from, again you fail to address the many weeks of factual data I supply and show any counter argument or rebut, you simply carry on pushing your ideology while ignoring the points raised that I have backed up and can be easily be confirmed.More info on GERS
From a pro indy site (they use external sources to back up data)
The six key facts about GERS (2018)
We’re just going to reprint this piece every year, because only the numbers change. Today saw the publication of the 2017-18 GERS stats, which are once again triggering a convulsive orgy of &…
Please address all the points I have raised with legitimate citations if you disagree and not media bias that I already condemned in a reply to midwest.
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Hello all, i think my thread has gone awal... lol
Would it be better to start a new thread " Scottish Independence".....
Then forum members can assign their valuable time appropriately.
thx
Would it be better to start a new thread " Scottish Independence".....
Then forum members can assign their valuable time appropriately.
thx
D
Darkwood
PS -looking into the poster of this six key facts, it turns out he is a national ideologist who has had his twitter accounts suspended on numerous times for false information and fake political reference and now permanently - try looking him up Rev. Stuart Campbell.
Can we actually stop citing biased reports showing biased paper headlines which I have never claimed to be correct and give some real evidence to back your position, try going to the UK gov figures that confirm the Scottish Gov, if you continually deny them then you are looking into conspiracy theory and then that is sadly a case of suffering cognitive dissonance.
I will add, why would the Scottish own independent financial reports match that of the UK, surely they would be the first to expose irregularities.
[automerge]1577665675[/automerge]
Can we actually stop citing biased reports showing biased paper headlines which I have never claimed to be correct and give some real evidence to back your position, try going to the UK gov figures that confirm the Scottish Gov, if you continually deny them then you are looking into conspiracy theory and then that is sadly a case of suffering cognitive dissonance.
I will add, why would the Scottish own independent financial reports match that of the UK, surely they would be the first to expose irregularities.
[automerge]1577665675[/automerge]
You are correct and normally I would but we tend to avoid staffing threads we get involved with personally to ensure we are impartial, as this would not effect my involvement in the conversation then I will look into opening a new thread and bringing this one to a conclusion as it no longer has any input on it's original direction.
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ADMIN
Is it possible to duplicate this thread, rename it and delete the start of the thread
If you want me to start another thread I will but I feel much has been said already and people will not want to duplicate their posts
Is it possible to duplicate this thread, rename it and delete the start of the thread
If you want me to start another thread I will but I feel much has been said already and people will not want to duplicate their posts
D
Darkwood
I will see if I get chance to sort it tomoz, i have a day off although i expect to be in a delicate frame.
Yep always good to talk; otherwise just shout, take industrial action, argue about religion, she said he said, or he said he said, she said she said, money or lack of, politics of course, or I just don't like you.
Happy New Year. See you all next Year.
It's only a matter of time before baldelectrician comes over to our way of thinking... I feel like we're on the cusp of a major breakthrough...
D
Darkwood
Right guys/girls, looking into breaking this thread up and relocating sections to a new thread is turning out to be a nightmare, there is too much in quotations and some late participants quoting older posts make it impracticable as not only would it create a confusing new thread, it would leave this thread missing continuity given the Scottish discourse is often weaved in with other non related points, also the auto merging adds to my problems of posts been multi reference and topic.
I will create a new thread and add the link here if you wish to continue the discussion but ask we now keep this thread back on the topic for which it was created (I hold my hands up as guilty as charged to my input in moving off topic).
[automerge]1577882929[/automerge]
Here is the link to further discuss and a poll added on a 2nd Scottish referendum.
www.electriciansforums.net
I will create a new thread and add the link here if you wish to continue the discussion but ask we now keep this thread back on the topic for which it was created (I hold my hands up as guilty as charged to my input in moving off topic).
[automerge]1577882929[/automerge]
Here is the link to further discuss and a poll added on a 2nd Scottish referendum.
Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it? - in - Electrician Talk Forum
, Should Scotland be allowed another referendum and do you think parliament has a right to deny it?, Electrician Talk Forum, ElectriciansForums.net Est.2006 | Free Electrical Advice Forum and page_number.
www.electriciansforums.net
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