Labour Manifesto

[Baddegg]

Guess they will have to go on the first referendum results then...

 

[Midwest]

I can see their frustrations though, the SNP’ers. They don’t want to leave the EU, but want to leave the UK. It’s a double whammy for them, ‘cos they’re not going to get either, in the short term at least.

 

[Darkwood]

The point to my post was the hypocritical position the SNP is in, they are playing mind games by trying to suggest the EU referendum vote is dragging them out of the EU against their will, while sitting and pushing an ideology that will achieve exactly the same.
This is why they cannot use it as a mandate for a second indy vote, also the fact in 2014 they used the possibility of the UK leaving the EU in their campaign and still lost, this strengthens my point.

Regarding the EU changing its position, why would they though, the UK is leaving and with that one of their largest financial contributors to the EU coffers, there are minimum requirements to join the EU mainly to ensure you are not a long term financial burden, Scotland has a massive deficit and comes no where near meeting this and given they have even less money now as well as major EU economies on the brink of recession like Germany then they have little incentive to give Scotland exception while other nations you mention still need to meet the requirements.

I will also throw another elephant into the room, lets say Scotland goes independent, they are going to have turn their economy around, catch up on their debts a bit and do all this while losing a massive chunk of money that the UK has been propping them up with for 30yrs, if they cannot turn their economy with the UK heavily supporting them, how do we see the future when that money stops flowing, the only silver lining here is they will probably get their fishing grounds back in the next few years and see that industry boom the irony been because we are out of the EU.

 

[Midwest]

Since this thread went this way, I've read of all sorts of facts & figures about how much is Scotland's GDP, how much the UK gives in grants or whatever the term is and how much the UK is Scotland's biggest receiver of goods, how much Scotland makes or not on oil revenue, fishers etc etc.

But they are all wildly differing in viewpoint, depending on the source of that information. So again, bit like Brexit, no one truly knows what would happen, until it happens.

 

[baldelectrician]

The numbers in the GERS figures are Jackanory fairy take ones.

The fact remains there are questions such as
Why are a Conservative Government so intent on keeping a partner they see as a financial drain.

This from 1921 - before oil

And more detail:

I smell fertiliser.
If Scots were really draining the UK and placing them in the financial soup then Westminster would drop Scotland like a hot potato

Remember if Boris let Scotland go this- and his boundary changes would make Westminster have an almost permanent conservative majority

 

[Zerax]

I will also throw another elephant into the room, lets say Scotland goes independent, they are going to have turn their economy around, catch up on their debts a bit and do all this while losing a massive chunk of money that the UK has been propping them up with for 30yrs, if they cannot turn their economy with the UK heavily supporting them, how do we see the future when that money stops flowing, the only silver lining here is they will probably get their fishing grounds back in the next few years and see that industry boom the irony been because we are out of the EU.

There's no doubt that an independent Scotland that is a full member of the EU would have to surrender virtually all fiscal policy to Brussels in return for massive EU funding... On the EU graph of who are the net contributors/beneficiaries, Scotland would be right there next to Greece !
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Why are a Conservative Government so intent on keeping a partner they see as a financial drain.

Their full title is "The Conservative and Unionist Party"... the clue's in the name.

 

[baldelectrician]

Their full title is "The Conservative and Unionist Party"... the clue's in the name.

* Only when it suits Boris- remember he railed against a border in the Irish Sea with Theresa May and then threw the DUP under the bus to get an almost identical deal to the previous one he objected to
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There's no doubt that an independent Scotland that is a full member of the EU would have to surrender virtually all fiscal policy to Brussels in return for massive EU funding... On the EU graph of who are the net contributors/beneficiaries, Scotland would be right there next to Greece !

You are confusing EU membership with that of the Euro, Scotland cannot join the Euro after independence as it does not have its own currency

Once Scotland has her own currency it still cannot join the Euro- it has to joint he ERM first and joining the ERM is voluntary

 

[Darkwood]

Since this thread went this way, I've read of all sorts of facts & figures about how much is Scotland's GDP, how much the UK gives in grants or whatever the term is and how much the UK is Scotland's biggest receiver of goods, how much Scotland makes or not on oil revenue, fishers etc etc.

But they are all wildly differing in viewpoint, depending on the source of that information. So again, bit like Brexit, no one truly knows what would happen, until it happens.

Scotland's deficit and UK funding is easily sourced to view, when I discuss them it is based on Government and Treasury figures not news papers or party reports, there is absolutely no mistake about it that Scotland heavily relies on the UK and has done consistently for 30yrs, there is no arguing that Scotland's deficit is triple that of the UK.
In fact I was been very generous when I said triple as that reflected 2018-19 figures I was going to be harsh I would have quoted last yrs which makes the Scottish deficit 7 times larger than that of the UK although as well as the Scottish deficit rises, the UK went into surplus which explains the sudden rise to some extent.
Having said all this the Scottish get £1661 per person more than the UK average which has always made me wonder why the SNP exist if their goal is going to make everyone poorer instantly and remove and lose that vital financial support they rely on... I am all for a nation having its say but the reality should be made clear as it was in 2014 when Sturgeon failed on many occasions to answer these question and satisfy the public with the answers.

Here's where I get my info' - unless the Scottish government is fiddling the figures then I think it is a reliable non biased source, wouldn't you agree.
Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland 2018-2019 - gov.scot - https://www.gov.scot/news/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-2018-19/

 

[baldelectrician]

GERS is an estimate.
Almost all of the data parts are estimated
In this day and age where someone spending time at a desk ( with access to government data such as HMRC live data) could work out almost exactly how the money stack up.
Funny they have not done that ?

 

[Darkwood]

Show me in the history of these 'estimates' as you call them that they have been proven to be inaccurate, they are based on factual data and financial realtime figures, to call them out as estimates actually says nothing, if there exists enough info then even estimates can be extremely accurate, would you prefer I link to the HMRC's own figures which are consistently and pretty much the same?
It really seems you are looking to discredit anything that goes against your mindset here but only through opinion, please cite your next opinion with back up if you want to win my agreement.

Ps these are not estimates I posted, they are actual historical factual data hence they are not predicting next year.

 

[baldelectrician]

More info on GERS
From a pro indy site (they use external sources to back up data)

The six key facts about GERS (2018)

We’re just going to reprint this piece every year, because only the numbers change. Today saw the publication of the 2017-18 GERS stats, which are once again triggering a convulsive orgy of &…

wingsoverscotland.com

 

[Darkwood]

More info on GERS
From a pro indy site (they use external sources to back up data)

The six key facts about GERS (2018)

We’re just going to reprint this piece every year, because only the numbers change. Today saw the publication of the 2017-18 GERS stats, which are once again triggering a convulsive orgy of &…

wingsoverscotland.com

Oh dear, so rather than post HMRC's reflective comparative data you post one of the most biased nationalist reports, I'm sorry but this ain't going to win any discourse here, I now see why you are down the rabbit hole which is a shame, I was expecting something better, I agree in part about the national newspapers take on it been biased but that is not where I source my info from, again you fail to address the many weeks of factual data I supply and show any counter argument or rebut, you simply carry on pushing your ideology while ignoring the points raised that I have backed up and can be easily be confirmed.

Please address all the points I have raised with legitimate citations if you disagree and not media bias that I already condemned in a reply to midwest.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Hello all, i think my thread has gone awal... lol

Would it be better to start a new thread " Scottish Independence".....

Then forum members can assign their valuable time appropriately.

thx

 

[Darkwood]

PS -looking into the poster of this six key facts, it turns out he is a national ideologist who has had his twitter accounts suspended on numerous times for false information and fake political reference and now permanently - try looking him up Rev. Stuart Campbell.

Can we actually stop citing biased reports showing biased paper headlines which I have never claimed to be correct and give some real evidence to back your position, try going to the UK gov figures that confirm the Scottish Gov, if you continually deny them then you are looking into conspiracy theory and then that is sadly a case of suffering cognitive dissonance.

I will add, why would the Scottish own independent financial reports match that of the UK, surely they would be the first to expose irregularities.
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Hello all, i think my thread has gone awal... lol

Would it be better to start a new thread " Scottish Independence".....

Then forum members can assign their valuable time appropriately.

thx

You are correct and normally I would but we tend to avoid staffing threads we get involved with personally to ensure we are impartial, as this would not effect my involvement in the conversation then I will look into opening a new thread and bringing this one to a conclusion as it no longer has any input on it's original direction.

 

[baldelectrician]

ADMIN
Is it possible to duplicate this thread, rename it and delete the start of the thread

If you want me to start another thread I will but I feel much has been said already and people will not want to duplicate their posts