'Like for like' on a shower

[rocker]

Just been round a lady's house to price up for replacing her 7 kw shower with a 10.5kW. She's got an old wylex board, (also a little 2-way wylex rewireable for a ring to the kitchen and one room, which she reckons British Gas put in a couple of years ago - if they did they should be shot), NO bonding, insufficient earthing conductor blah blah. The current shower is on 6mm on a 30A fuse.

I gave her a price to put in a 17th board, do the bonding, update earth, put in a 10mm cable and fit the shower.
As you can imagine she was not impressed with this figure!

I then priced up to put an extra little RCD shower board, with all the bonding etc which was a better price but still pretty high for the sake of a shower!! She still wasnt biting.

She then asked me if she got a new 7kW shower would I be able to put that on the existing cable.

Now as far as I'm concerned this would be a 'like for like' job so as long as the bonding was done, as we arent creating a new circuit, this may be possible, though even if it is I'm not 100% about it. So here are my questions:

Can this be done on a 'like for like' basis on the existing fuse without RCD protection?

Can this be done using the existing cable and put on a little shower board?

Really don't want to put in a shower that isnt protected anyway, so I think I'm going to have to walk on this one, but would be interesting to hear what you guys think.

 

[JulianC]

If you simply whip the old 7kW shower off and put the new one on in its place, it's a like for like swap and no further action is required. However, if you decide to put the shower circuit on its own board, it becomes installation work, falls under part P, is notifiable, requires RCD protection etc....

 

[bugsy]

As it's a shower in a shower / bathroom room I would'nt touch it unless it was brought up to 17th.
As your changing like for like and the installation would not be further comprimised by it's installation it would proberbly be O.K.
Will you or won't you that is the question

 

[rocker]

That's what I thought. I don't think I'm comfortable putting it in without any protection, though. I spose I'll just quote her for the 7kW on the existing cable with a lil shower RCD board put in - you can get them for about twenty quid now, can't you (never put an additional board in before - as I said there is already an additional 2-way rewireable board, that isn't going to cause problems, is it?).

If she goes for that, as it will be a one way dedicated board, what size tails could I get away with on it??

And just to satisfy my curiosity, no mention of bonding - you still HAVE to do bonding even if its a like for like, right? Or wrong? (I know putting the RCD board in makes it NOT like for like, I just mean in general)

 

[JulianC]

And just to satisfy my curiosity, no mention of bonding - you still HAVE to do bonding even if its a like for like, right? Or wrong?

I think technically it could be argued either way I suppose. But as a conscientious electrician, you certainly should!

 

[rocker]

Yer I do every time anyway. As well as the safety aspect, lets be honest bonding isn't the hardest thing in the world, and is a nice little extra.

I'll give her a ring and see what she says.... can see this going to mr Kzyczykic and his fantastic band of miracle workers though....

 

[bugsy]

That's the problem **** workers,

You could come out the existing OPD and into the RCD then off to the shower , and yes I upgrade the bonding

 

[cbw]

I think their great, the 80s fashion makes me feel young!!!!!!! Not so sure about the 80s pricing though!!!

The shower question is an awkward one, you seem to know all the answers yourself, I would suggest doing what you feel is right and let the 80s people have it.....conscionce clear and reputation intact!

 

[martysparky]

I think the above answers yourself I wouldn't walk easily though make sure you make it clear that a compromise is a compromise on the home safety..

Thus, cheaper would not be you because you are not prepared to compromise any of your customers safety.

I would say if your in doubt Play Safe! and use your sales skills.

With regard to showers and replacement has the cable been covered in insulation I.e top up.

10mm tails will be Ok to my knowledge.

Having said that I think you already know that anyhow.

The way I look at it is if I touch a circuit I want to bring it in line with current for my own piece of mind.


Good luck.

Regards

 

[GT1]

Is the client dead set on a 10.5kw shower..?
Depending on the instalation method of the existing 6mm, it MAY be suitable for a 9.5KW..?
sometimes you can just about get away with 6mm. (havent got tables to hand at the mo)
Henley block off some new upgraded tales to a little shower RCD unit, upgrade main bonding.. and then supp bonding in bathroom if it doesnt fit the 3 criteria for not needing it.

 

[rocker]

Thanks gents, I gave her a (very reasonable) price on the supplimentary board and bonding IF she get's a lower powered shower, she said she'll see if she can get one and give me a call back, but I can't see her going for that to be honest.

Cable is plastered into wall, grouped etc etc don't think I'd be able to get more than a 7.2 on it, well according to where I have looked in the OSG anyway but I'm sure there will be somewhere else where it says differently.....

Marty I always lay it on a bit thick with the safety stuff, lets be honest that's what all this Elecsa/NIC stuff is meant to be about, but 9/10 times I can see the look in the customer's eyes 'oh yea, here we go, what a load of rubbish'. I always say 'I don't want to worry you, but to todays standards it would not be classed as safe' etc etc but I hear myself and think 'you sound like someone off Rogue Traders'. It's a bit weird, I'm convinced of what I'm saying, I know it's correct and I'm not pulling the wool over anyones eyes, but still the customer seems to make me feel like I'm ripping them off.

 

[martysparky]

Thanks gents, I gave her a (very reasonable) price on the supplimentary board and bonding IF she get's a lower powered shower, she said she'll see if she can get one and give me a call back, but I can't see her going for that to be honest.

Cable is plastered into wall, grouped etc etc don't think I'd be able to get more than a 7.2 on it, well according to where I have looked in the OSG anyway but I'm sure there will be somewhere else where it says differently.....

Marty I always lay it on a bit thick with the safety stuff, lets be honest that's what all this Elecsa/NIC stuff is meant to be about, but 9/10 times I can see the look in the customer's eyes 'oh yea, here we go, what a load of rubbish'. I always say 'I don't want to worry you, but to todays standards it would not be classed as safe' etc etc but I hear myself and think 'you sound like someone off Rogue Traders'. It's a bit weird, I'm convinced of what I'm saying, I know it's correct and I'm not pulling the wool over anyones eyes, but still the customer seems to make me feel like I'm ripping them off.

I know the feeling, If they look like that or especially comment I reply I'll show you all the legislation if you like or look into it. Then they know you mean exactly what your saying is fact.

Then they go and get some gardener to wire the shower from a light circuit.

 

[rocker]

Don't even joke!

Was out leafleting this afternoon (lovely day in south wales) and quite a few houses being refurbed in the area I was in. Asked one group of lads in a builder's outfit if they wanted any spark work doing. 'Nah mate we've got a fella who does it' fair enuff thanks anyway chaps.

Asked another guy (who was cutting a kitchen top with a circular saw out in the street leaning against the kerb) with a big HANDY MAN sign blocking the pavement and he said 'No I do it myself, mate'.
Started up a bit of conversation 'oh yea, who are you with Elecsa, NIC?'
'You don't go in for all that part P rubbish do you? Nah nah nah mate, why should I pay for a poxy course to learn something I already know how to do? Mugs that way.'

I just looked at him.

HANDY!

Later went back and posted two leaflets through that door!

 

[martysparky]

lol, had one like that the other day. Was talking to a woman in street she said she's having her bathroom refurbished. Guy fitting a shower, Good tiling mind, I asked him a few little questions. He did not have a clue!
These people think that like for like is just a shower not the power its pulling.

The prob is they don't advertise, don't give certs and change there name every week!

Worrying isn't it.

The only good thing in that is some times losing a job like that means a call in the future to remedy.

Sometimes it makes you feel like coming straight out and mentioning the 5 G fine for building owner or person who done the job. Especially when there van has no name on it. Usually there relative tho.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

If the shower has been in for a while and it doesnt have RCD protection you better check the installation instructions for the new one. ALL new showers state in the instructions "must be protected by a RCD".
This will mean you are altering the circuit, so new EIC, part P, etc etc. Manufacturers instructions take preference over the wiring regs as well, although it will also state must be fitted in accordance with current IEE wiring regulations.