Here's a slightly clearer picture of what SolarEdge can do. Here we have an east, south and west facing panels all on the same system being optimised by SolarEdge.

Capture.JPG

And again here, an array of 5 panels which are hard shaded by an adjacent ridge casting a decreasing diagonal shadow over them. Each panel comes on-line as soon as the shading disappears whilst not affect yield from the other panels.

Capture.JPG
 
Last edited:
Looking at the SMA sunny boy inverters. They seem to do a pretty good job of dealing with shade. Anyone got any idea of the difference between replacing our solarmax inverter with one of these as opposed to leaving solarmax inverter and putting in solar optimisers?

Thanks
 
If you are going to change inverter and are considering optimisers, it will be more cost effective to use Solar Edge. The Solar Edge inverter is designed for use with their optimisers. Retrofit optimisers (solar edge or tyco) will be a more expensive option, as each one is more expensive. Using a complete solar edge system gives the kind of monitoring capabilities shown in the last two posts.

Panels could also be placed on different faces of your building if this would maximise potential output.

A properly designed system using optimisers should give better performance than one without. However, this has to be judged against the incremental cost.
 
I'm just thinking about options and wondering if fitting an inverter with technology to deal with shade would give us nearly as good performance with a lot less hassle and expense?

The panels can't go on any other roof so we're stuck where they are.
 
For the simplest option I would certainly recommend changing the inverter for a SunnyBoy 3600TL.
If you enable OptiTrac (disabled by default) it really does an amazing job dealing with shade.
If you know how the strings are configured then it should be a simple inverter swap.

Ken
 
For the simplest option I would certainly recommend changing the inverter for a SunnyBoy 3600TL.
If you enable OptiTrac (disabled by default) it really does an amazing job dealing with shade.
If you know how the strings are configured then it should be a simple inverter swap.

Ken

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I emailed the installer yesterday giving them 3 options

1. Install optimisers
2. Install microinverters
3. Remove and refund

However, I'm not thinking there is a 4th that is easier and that is install a SunnyBoy inverter.

I'll see what they say when they come back to me.

What you do you mean when you say "if you know how the strings are configured"?

Cheers
 
I'm assuming that the panels are configured in 2 equal length strings. i.e. something like top 8 as one string and bottom 8 are the other.
The SB3600 has two separate MPPT inputs, so can deal with different length strings. It 'may' be worth reconfiguring the strings so that one string is never shaded, and the other string deals with the shaded panels. I haven't run a simulation to see which is best (any real world experiences welcome)
Personally I would swap the inverter out for a SunnyBoy with the existing string configuration, enable OptiTrac and let it run and log some data. You can then see exactly how each string is performing, and then make an informed decision if its worth adjusting the stings.
 
Changing inverters would be the least hassle in my opinion. The sma 3600 can be considered as being 2 separate inverters. I would look into having as few panels as possible on one tracker and include both shaded panels on this tracker (within the limits of the inverter). The remaining panels can go on the other tracker and produce max'm generation as they won't have any shade at all pulling them down. You don't have to have equal No of panels in each tracker but you do need to check the min'm start up voltage and the max'm No. of panels each tracker can take.
 
The panels are in full shade in the morning and then come into sun from the left to right as the sun moves around. Thus they all get some shading at some point in the day and the ones on the left get out of shade earliest.

Bearing this in mind and what you've said I wonder then if it would be best to have the 8 on the left hand side in 1 string and the 8 on the right in a second string and put them on an SMA inverter with optitrac switched on for both.

Looking at what people are saying about optitrac it seems to be pretty good and I think it might give us the best possible output from these panels in this location (the only location they can go).
 
We have two arrays here, one with solaredge inverter and optimisers and one with an SMA TL inverter spilt into strings designed to minimise the effect of shading on the array as a whole (i.e one string connected to one of the MPP's gets 'hit' the worst) with optitrac enabled, both get very similar shade. To the annoyance of solar edge, it is very difficult to tell the difference... (there are other technical reasons for installing one of the arrays with solaredge)
 
We have two arrays here, one with solaredge inverter and optimisers and one with an SMA TL inverter spilt into strings designed to minimise the effect of shading on the array as a whole (i.e one string connected to one of the MPP's gets 'hit' the worst) with optitrac enabled, both get very similar shade. To the annoyance of solar edge, it is very difficult to tell the difference... (there are other technical reasons for installing one of the arrays with solaredge)

Well there we go. It seems that the most straightforward, easiest and cheapest option is fit sma inverter.
 
Possibly, though you will also want to sort it out into strings that get the worst / best shade / sun.

You should also have a string test doen to see if there are any faulty panels / miss wired strings, your current inverter may have two strings (and one MPP tracker) thouh how have they been physically wired? You want to put all the worst affected panels into just one string, so that will at a minmum mean a good crawl on the roof and look under the panels to see if you can see how they've done it. Most likely it will mean taking at least half the panels off and re-wiring them in the best order. So whilst you've got them off.... what would the cost of optimisers and control box be vs a new inverter...... probably very similar, though the latter may be less actual work.
 
Possibly, though you will also want to sort it out into strings that get the worst / best shade / sun.

You should also have a string test doen to see if there are any faulty panels / miss wired strings, your current inverter may have two strings (and one MPP tracker) thouh how have they been physically wired? You want to put all the worst affected panels into just one string, so that will at a minmum mean a good crawl on the roof and look under the panels to see if you can see how they've done it. Most likely it will mean taking at least half the panels off and re-wiring them in the best order. So whilst you've got them off.... what would the cost of optimisers and control box be vs a new inverter...... probably very similar, though the latter may be less actual work.

I'm thinking more for the installer as I expect them to come and do this and pay for it. They could reuse my solarmax inverter on another job that has no shading and give me an SMA one that works with shading. Cheapest option for them by a mile.
 
The regulations say that they can't re-use equipment defined as panels and inverters that have been once installed on a FiT registered installation on another one. One questions their competence to make any sensible decision or recommendation though, and I wouldn't be suporised if they tried to do that to the detriment of someone else....

Where are you with the conversation with your installer and what have they offered to do so far?

You have all the advice, it's now time to get it resolved...
 
Well there we go. It seems that the most straightforward, easiest and cheapest option is fit sma inverter.
Aurora Power One have the exact same shading functionality and dual MPPT set up, but for a fair bit less money.

Attached is one we installed earlier, with hard shading from next door house coming across the array from 5.40pm. full scan function set to 5 minute intervals on Aurora power one 3.6 Out-D, as the performance at 15 minute intervals was terrible, and I've approximated the shaded and unshaded production lines for comparison. The shading actually happens almost exactly as per our model, as does the performance.

btw can I ask, how did you end up choosing this company to install your system? This sort of situation is the entire reason that this recent race to the bottom with solar is a really bad idea,along with the get 3 quotes mantra - getting 3 quotes is all very well if people go with the best company, but far too often they're just going with the cheapest and assuming that solar is just simple technology / ignoring the benefits of going with an experienced well trained installer even if it might cost a little extra up front.... or often actually, people end up buying from some smarmy sales person who knows nothing about solar, then wondering why it doesn't all work out well for them.

Let this thread be a warning to others, if you buy from a company who doesn't know what they're doing, then it can all go very badly wrong for you especially where there is any shading involved.

I do hope you get this sorted, but at the same time, I can't help but feel that maybe you contributed to this by choosing a company that didn't know what they're doing for some reason, then expecting the experienced installers on here to assist you for free down the line when it's all gone wrong - the same experienced installers who're being undercut by the sorts of idiots you got to install for you.

Apologies if you think this is out of order, but I have had an ale and am going to get on my soapbox for a minute, as this is a serious issue for the industry and our customers and potential customers.

It's an example of why cheap / big but know nothing companies aren't always best. We recently took someone on who'd been British Gas trained for solar and worked for them for 18 months, then worked for another company, so total 2.5 years solar experience, mainly with SMA.... he'd never been shown how to set up the optitrac global peak shading function on their inverters, or even told that it existed.

As a counter point to that, we trained our guys in it within a few days of it being released, and bought laptops specifically for them to use to set this up, and went back to upgrade a lot of customers inverters with the updated firmware within weeks, which really is the difference between a highly specialist company, and some fly by night, or big company that's decided to move into solar.

If you have shading, then please find a company that really knows their stuff to deal with, otherwise this sort of situation will very likely be the result. Solar is not simple, it can not be learnt properly via a 3 day course led by trainers who've only done a couple of installs themselves, or have competence properly assessed by assessors who've only done 5 installers themselves.... unfortunately that makes up much of the industry, and is all the MCS requires, so as a customer if you have a complex install you really need to make a judgement about whether the installer seems to know what they're talking about or not.

tbh this is more of an indictment of the industry regulators than anything, unfortunately the public get misled into thinking that all MCS companies must know what they're doing, when the reality is very different - MCS is no guarantee of quality or competence, it's basically a minimum standard, and you're left to assess for yourself whether the company actually knows their stuff beyond that bare minimum standard.

I hope you get this sorted though, as far as it's possible to be sorted.
 

Attachments

  • solar-shading-function-inverter.png
    solar-shading-function-inverter.png
    59.7 KB · Views: 107
Totally fair points there.

I was of course fairly influenced by price but I checked the company out and spoke to previous clients. To be fair to them they've not yet had a right to reply so we'll see what their response is.
 
Had the guy out today and to be fair to him he was really decent and is keen to get this sorted. He's said we can have a different inverter and has said sma sunny boy and aurora power one both have technology to deal with shading. I think sma has software to track the global peak whereas aurora has 2 mppt.

So the question is which one is best to go for? Any thoughts?
 
i'd be buying one of these babies.

220px-Stihl_MS_170.JPG
 
Power-one also has software to specifically cope with shading across multipel strings. As with the SMA inverter, you have to specifically switch it on.
Power-one on-screen configuration, SMA via the sunny explorer software. In your case, I would slo check that the installler has the knowledge as to how to do this - or even if they know that the functions exists beyond the twin MPPT. Additionally with Power-One you can manually change the re-scan interval time to check it has the best value (it time it scans the output will be affected as it searches for the best value)

Horses for courses. We've installed both!

SMA has easier and better monitoring built in and with Sunny Explorer on your PC, the display and ability to store detailed output is 'free' (you DO NOT need a 'SunnyBeam) Add in some extra free software and you could have a live link to PVoutput.org as well. Power-one is a little more complicated.
 
SMA has easier and better monitoring built in and with Sunny Explorer on your PC, the display and ability to store detailed output is 'free' (you DO NOT need a 'SunnyBeam) Add in some extra free software and you could have a live link to PVoutput.org as well.

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but could you point me towards the 'extra free software' please? Sounds like just what I want!

Thanks.
 
The top right panel apprears to be shaded at the top. this covers the full panel. the by-pass diodes are activated and causing this. Next time it is sunny take a look at the shading. take output. Then when shade goes off the panel check again. If it shoots up quickly (which is what i believe you are saying) i would move the panels to the left. Your output over the year will be improved
 
The top right panel apprears to be shaded at the top. this covers the full panel. the by-pass diodes are activated and causing this. Next time it is sunny take a look at the shading. take output. Then when shade goes off the panel check again. If it shoots up quickly (which is what i believe you are saying) i would move the panels to the left. Your output over the year will be improved

Yeah that's pretty much what was described in the first post in this thread.
 
Had the guy out today and to be fair to him he was really decent and is keen to get this sorted. He's said we can have a different inverter and has said sma sunny boy and aurora power one both have technology to deal with shading. I think sma has software to track the global peak whereas aurora has 2 mppt.

So the question is which one is best to go for? Any thoughts?
As worcester says, power-one has the same function, but it's just called something like 'full scan', contrary to what Worcester says though, it's actually on as standard on the power-one, but only set to operate every 15 minutes - in high shading situations we'd set it to every 5 minutes - the SMA actually will only go down to every 6 minutes, power-one I think can be set as low as you want, but I'd not advise any less than 5 minutes really.

monitoring is better with SMA, however you can use something like this current cost system for maybe £100 installed to upload the output to a web portal for you which will give you reasonable monitoring, it just won't allow
the installer to interact remotely with the inverter... but unless they know what they're doing with that (as worcester does), then this is a little pointless anyway, and prone to cause as many problems as it solves IME.

Current Cost Dashboard :: device 114779


ps This is the system I screenshotted earlier in the thread (I think) with hard shading coming across the system rapidly from around 5:40pm - it's 12 x 285Wp panels and uses power-one 3.0 Out-D, but specifically doesn't use the dual tracker function as we calculated it was more efficient to operate it single string with the shading function enabled at 5minute intervals, due to the higher efficiency at higher voltages, and the fact the shaded string would rapidly end up below the MPPT voltage as it cut out shaded cells. The performance is working pretty much as expected.
 
@GavinA, "contrary to what Worcester says though, it's actually on as standard on the power-one, but only set to operate every 15 minutes"

The last one we installed was 'disabled' by default, so definitely worthwile checking it takes less than 30 seconds to do so. - (page 28 of the installtion manual)

Also we tend to leave the scan at 15 minutes, in general the sun doesn't move that quickly across a panel, and each time it scans I believe (GavinA you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong) that it will lose a little output as it re-scans. And I would hope that they have giving some though to setting at 15 minutes as the default.
 
@GavinA, "contrary to what Worcester says though, it's actually on as standard on the power-one, but only set to operate every 15 minutes"

The last one we installed was 'disabled' by default, so definitely worthwile checking it takes less than 30 seconds to do so. - (page 28 of the installtion manual)
hmm could have sworn it was on as standard, wonder if that's changed or I've had a memory glitch.

Also we tend to leave the scan at 15 minutes, in general the sun doesn't move that quickly across a panel, and each time it scans I believe (GavinA you're welcome to correct me if I'm wrong) that it will lose a little output as it re-scans. And I would hope that they have giving some though to setting at 15 minutes as the default.

yeah, think SMA reckon it loses about 0.2% minutes, I assume that's for 15 minutes setting. set it for 5 minutes will lose 0.6%, so it's up to the installer to determine if it will gain more than 0.4% in improved shading performance vs the 15 minute setting - which is mainly down to how fast the shading moves across the array, and how much of the array is impacted for how long.

On the system linked to the shading is from the next door house, so the shading moves fast when it happens, and there were noticeable drops in output between the 15 minute optitrac sweeps, so I think it was worth it in that case.

This is SMA's take on how effective it can be

csm_Tabelle-DE_01_603613f120.jpg


Also worth pointing out that it only works if the designer has designed the system with the bypass diodes orientated correctly for the shading - no use if the shade is running all the way across the short side of the panels, so the bypass diodes can't do anything about it.
 

Attachments

  • csm_Tabelle-DE_01_603613f120.jpg
    csm_Tabelle-DE_01_603613f120.jpg
    18 KB · Views: 88
Our installer has ordered an sma sunnyboy 3600tl which I am a bit surprised at since we have 16 x 250w panels giving 4000 watts max output. Wouldn't we be better off with the 4000tl or is there a good reason why we might be better off with a smaller inverter?
 
A couple of reasons. For a start, oversized inverters will under perform. Inverters, generally, work more efficiently when they are working at somewhere near their capacity. Therefore, a 3kWp inverter will work better when the panels are producing, say, 2.9kW compared to a 3.6kWp inverter with the same panel production. The other reason is that 3.6kW inverters, generally, don't require prior notification to the DNO as they tend to be rated at less than 16A.
 
SMA Sunnyboy installed this morning. Was giving about 0.7kw with half the array in shade. Switched on OptiTrac and it went up to 1.7kw. This picture below shows what it's doing in pretty much the same situation as the original post so it seems OptiTrac works. Many thanks guys. Now I just need to work out why my power monitor is showing about 10% less output than the SMA software, there can't be that much loss in the cables. I take a note of the days output each night on the generation meter at the consumer unit so I'll leave it a few days and compare that with the daily output as logged on the inverter and see if there's much difference.

20130718_134011.jpg
 
has you installer split the install into 2 separate strings? it should be split 8 left hand panels, 8 right hand so the shading doesn't drop the output more than necessary. Is there any reason they didn't use the left side of the roof (as we are looking at it) to minimise the shading from the trees?Have you tried using SMAs free download on a Bluetooth equipped computer. Ideally move the 4 right most panels somewhere else. even onto the west roof if you have room there will be better than this but otherwise, although mixing formats, you would be better having 2 landscape and 2 portrait around the solar thermal. As for the rest of the install, it's already been said, it's shabby. looks like it was probably put in by an electrical subby with little/no knowledge of the requirements of solar PV and nont much interest in what they were doing or doing a decent tidy job.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
has you installer split the install into 2 separate strings? it should be split 8 left hand panels, 8 right hand so the shading doesn't drop the output more than necessary. Is there any reason they didn't use the left side of the roof (as we are looking at it) to minimise the shading from the trees?Have you tried using SMAs free download on a Bluetooth equipped computer. Ideally move the 4 right most panels somewhere else. even onto the west roof if you have room there will be better than this but otherwise, although mixing formats, you would be better having 2 landscape and 2 portrait around the solar thermal. As for the rest of the install, it's already been said, it's shabby. looks like it was probably put in by an electrical subby with little/no knowledge of the requirements of solar PV and nont much interest in what they were doing or doing a decent tidy job.
disagree, that would look terrible, the current install looks pretty good on the roof anyway.

Splitting the array left to right through would have been sensible, as would switching the optitrac fucntion on - surprising how few installers even know about it / how to do that. We had a british gas trained guy worked for us briefly with 3 years experience working with SMA inverters who had know clue about that.
 
Agree with the OptiTrac comment. I imagine there are some installs where installers are switching them on without considering the shade and analysing whether it would actually help or hinder performance.
 
disagree, that would look terrible, the current install looks pretty good on the roof anyway.

Splitting the array left to right through would have been sensible, as would switching the optitrac fucntion on - surprising how few installers even know about it / how to do that. We had a british gas trained guy worked for us briefly with 3 years experience working with SMA inverters who had know clue about that.
it might look good on the roof, but it doesn't work!!yes, it won't look the best (although I disagree with terrible) but at least it will work!

- - - Updated - - -

this is one of those arrays where less really would be more. A 3kW array would have been a better choice than 4kW
 
it might look good on the roof, but it doesn't work!!yes, it won't look the best (although I disagree with terrible) but at least it will work!

- - - Updated - - -

this is one of those arrays where less really would be more. A 3kW array would have been a better choice than 4kW
but done right, optitrac effectively switches off the shaded panels anyway, so different rules apply when designing with optitrac. You may be right, hard to know without a detailed analysis. You also have to factor in that if you split the string into 2 on a 12 panels system each string is then right at the bottom of the efficiency range for the inverter voltage wise, which knocks off 2-3% across the entire year, and would disable optitrac as minor shading would take the system out of the MPPT voltage range.

There could even be a case for running it in single string to optimise the efficiency of the inverter, and allow the optitrac to operate to maximum affect while the string voltage is still at the sweet point for the inverter on the unshaded panels, so the unshaded kit would be getting 2-4% more output than the unshaded panels plus optitrac on the split MPPT option.

it's all a bit complex, which is why the MCS shading method is such a nonsense, you can't apply a one size fits all policy to analysing shading - not properly anyway, and it certainly doesn't encourage good design.
 
I was assuming a change in inverter. not familiar with optitrac though. My recommendation initially would to have been enphase TBH if a 4kw system was wanted. If the price was too much for the customer then probably 3kW with 2 panels to the left of the thermal system, you might even squeeze 3 in there to give a 3.2kW system
 

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Green 2 Go Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses Heating 2 Go Electrician Workwear Supplier
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

Advert

Daily, weekly or monthly email

Thread Information

Title
low output until all panels in sun
Prefix
N/A
Forum
Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum
Start date
Last reply date
Replies
116

Advert

Thread statistics

Created
davey_b,
Last reply from
moggy1968,
Replies
116
Views
16,817

Advert

Back
Top