Discuss Multiple small drinks machines, salad chillers and small fridges 433.3 and 434. in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
There are 4small juice dispensers (incorporates a chiller in each), a small salad (coldmeats) chiller and a fridge on a circuit protected by a 20Amp MCB. NONE ofthese items are on plugs and are attached to the circuit via 20Amp 4pole rotary isolators. All the items when they arrived new were fitted with European plugs (2pin) rated at16Amps each. The flex for each item is between 0.8mm and 1.5mm and a max of 1.5m long. My questionis as the devices have motors / compressors for the chillers; they are not afixed load (like a luminaire) and may suffer ‘Overcurrent’ thus the cables could fail (melt) before the MCB trips. But the chillers only pull 500w on a .8mm cables. So is it acceptable to run the small juicers and other equipment off the20Amp MCB? My point of reference is 433.3.1 (ii) ……….. is not likely to carry overcurrent…. So a 2.2 Amp appliance (max load from Manufactures rating plate) burning out a 0.8mm cable. This also happens with the split Air Con systems 20Amp MCB, 20Amp Isolator with a 1mm manufactures cable to the unit (max load from rating plate 5.6Amp) 2-3 A/C per MCB. These are being picked up by a group of inspectors as a danger as the MCB is 20A. But the load is sub 6Amp Is this adanger as I think not….. but I’m ready to be educated (chapter and verse would be appreciated as a reference please) !
Read 430-1 note 4 ..... the units will have come with a plug top on originally and thus are not subject to 433.3 and 434.
The manufacturers will have implemented any number of devices to protect from O/L light thermal cutouts, fuses etc etc hence smaller flex than the 13amp fuse....some items can be regarded as a fixed load thus the fuse need not provide O/L protetion only S/C in the plug but again we are out of the scope of the BS7671 so don't get confused here, they have their own regulations to adhere to.... thats why you see fused N on some control equipment which is a big no no in our wiring practices.
I have said to these 'Inspectors'* that the Manufacture ofthe items will spend a fortune to make sure the equipment is safe (CE) to useand will meet a certain safety level (outside of the Regs) before they areallowed to sell the item on the open market. But that fell on deaf ears…. “theycame with 16Amp (Euro 2pin) plugs they need to be on 16Amp MCB’s”. Me saying nothey don’t doesn’t work ! Darkwood you said 'some items can be regarded as a fixedload'... is there a rule of thumb / formula that can be applied todifferentiate between these items? (Other than that’s a lamp, that’s a cookeretc.) Does a rotary isolator come under Note 4 as it is not a plugor a socket? Devils advocated here what about a BS 4343 or is the Regs justreferring to BS 1363’s (being fused)? I can see that in challenging this and saying the electricalsystem does not need to be changed and all is well will cause all hell to breaklose and I'll have to put my money where my mouth is !
* These "inspectors' are the ones that insisted thatPVC water pipes be bonded, the manufactures wiring inside a florescent lightwas too small to be protected by a 10Amp MCB and all lamp units needed to bereplaced... the list is much much longer, but they are backed by the Governmentand are seen as SME ‘of all things’ (most are chancers)!!
I would be ensuring that these items are firstly compatable with the UK market, if they have the incorrect plugs for this country then you have to question this by either checking electrical spec's or contacting the manufacturer ..... also check where they were made and that the CE mark isn't reference to China Export which is often a confusing issue.
The regs are in a grey area here as the item came with a plug yet you remove and make a permanent connection so the regulations can be ambiguous as to whether its still classed as equipment with a flex cable connected by plug or socket. The way to ensure you can argue this reg is to fit blue 16amp commando style plug to a socket mounted off your rotary isolator. Then quote the the regulation.
Also if they are throwing these demands at you ask the to reference the regulations in writing to which they deem the install not to e compliant.
An example for you is a 16amp outlet having equipment plugged in that draws say flc of 8amps, the equipment comes with 1mm flex on it that is clearly rated smaller than the mcb feeding the 16amp socket yet reg 430.1 allows this as the manufacturer has fitted the appropriate flex that is required to supply the item. Most items that have plugs have a max rated current to which can be drawn and although the load may not be classed as fixed the max load will have been accounted for when designing the controls and wire size.
Think about a fluorescent fitting all connected directly to 1mm/1.5mm cables of your lighting circuit yet the internal wiring is substantially smaller but this is not an issue as its out of the scope of the BS7671 and the manufacturers will follow their own codes of practice...
Thank you Darkwood for the help as you said it is a gray area.
Everything here in Afghanistan comes from somewhere different but the items were brought in from the UAE and I have checked with the manufactures and they are real.
These 'inspectors' will quote Reg 134 if they can't pin anything down correctly and I'll be at fault no matter what (these people are seen as SME on everything).
I'll look back through the records and see what Reg they are quoting if I can find the Cookhouse file !
Thank you again for your help and have a good evening.
No worries and just to be clear this is my personal interpretation of the regs but as is with this forum other opinions may be forged, the thing is if you can question and prove any of their requests to be wrong due to their misinterpretation of the regs then you will get respect of your employers as well as the company implicating all these changes but dont jump in deep ... do research get a direct regulation interpretation from the IET and put forward your senerio.... in then indeed you are correct it wont be the big boys crushing the little man opinion as you will have all the evidence to back up what you say.
Ive corrected the Clark of Electrical Works on 2 occasions and trust me its not easy to get them to change their views as they always assume they are correct and with there position they hold alot of respect so others automatically assume they are the ones in the right.
Reply to Multiple small drinks machines, salad chillers and small fridges 433.3 and 434. in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
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