Hi - Been contacted today by a customer who has had a system installed, but in the mean time the firm has gone into liquidation and they didnt have MCS either! They claimed to work in partnership with another firm - but this turned out to be bull.

He has been on the phone to MCS and they gave him my number amongst others - i want to help him, but i dont know about the procedure to certify this system seen as i havent had anything to do with it - without stating the obvious i will inspect it (including the roof fixings), do the hand over Manuel etc.

Has anyone got any experience of signing of another firms install thats gone bust?
 
Sorry, can't really talk from experience but, like yourself, I'd start from a position of wanting to help whilst not making myself liable for someone else's work. My attitude may change depending on my impression of the actual customer.

So, I'd visit and try to get a clear idea of what happened, the kit installed, the paperwork supplied (or not) and the finances. Did the customer pay the full amount & did he get an insurance-backed warranty? It should be pretty easy to determine whether the system is well designed and whether the electrics have been done properly.

As for claiming the FiT, the customer has to prove "ownership" and provide an MCS certificate. So, the question really is whether you're prepared to generate an MCS cert for a job you haven't installed. I think I probably would but the customer would have to sign a number of disclaimers saying we are not responsible for future problems (workmanship or performance).

Such a gesture of goodwill and helpfulness on your part may lead to referrals...
 
True - my thoughts were do the whole manual as if i had installed it, SAP calc bla, bla, bla, check it over etc - its the proof of ownership that could be the sticking point. The guy sounds elderly, certainly older rather than younger, and really nice on the phone, seems like an innocent victim. As you say i don't want to get legged up with all the hassle.

Cheers anyway
 
was it that ultra energy lot? heard they'd gone bust again.

I believe you can issue a completion certificate that also counts as proof of ownership.

Personally I think I'd offer to inspect and test it for a fee, then determine if it was of a sufficient standard to certifiy without further works, or needed additional work to bring it up to standard etc.

If it's up to spec I'd just sign it off, work up the paperwork properly, and make up some sort of letter for the guy to sign explaining the situation, that you're taking over from a bankrupt firm etc.

technically it may fall foul of some rule or other, but at the end of the day mcs, real etc all know that we have to bend those rules in these situations to help these guys out otherwise the entire system would be awash with complaints to which etc that'd destroy the industry. I'd rip any assessor to shreds who had a problem with this... not that they'd ever know about it anyway.

TBH though, if MCS have passed him on to them, you could get authorisation from them if you wanted to cover yourself, but do then run the risk of them being arses about it.
 
Why don't you just do an inspection and let the customer know what needs doing if anything
 
Hi all - just seen the replys - i had alreasy figured it out in my mind how i would handle the work side of things, and its the same as the suggestions above - im not going to take on anything thats looks a total dogs dinner without quoting upfront o bring it up to scratch - on the other hand it may well be ok.

For the record - NAPIT and my field officer both advised against taking it on - but - there isnt anything stopping me either - ive got to treat it like i have installed it, issue contract, O/M manual etc. One thing they did say was if you take it on, make sure you go over it with a fine tooth, really did deep and double check.

The guy is happy, im yet to see it, but will do next week - then i will decide if i want to take it on. I think more of this is going to happen so i may as well do one - or at least look at it.

@Gavin - yes its them thats gone bust.
 
I went to see a job installed by those bell-ends a few months ago. It wasn't great but it could be rescued.

In all honesty, with a scaffold erection and a couple of days labour I would have thought that most issues could be sorted.

- - - Updated - - -

I went to see a job installed by those bell-ends a few months ago. It wasn't great but it could be rescued.

In all honesty, with a scaffold erection and a couple of days labour I would have thought that most issues could be sorted.
 
fwiw the actual workmanship of the job we inspected by that mob in their previous guise was ok, at least what we could see of it without getting up to the roof.

they had installed a seriously undersized inverter though - well outside of spec, and missed the massive chimney to the south of the array out of their SAP calcs, but workmanship wise it was ok.
 
The job we went to see had an unfelted roof. By the time we had got there they had already been back to 'fix' a leak.

The spec of the job was reasonable but the inverter was installed on timber and minimum spacing distances for air flow on the inverter had been ignored.
 
Update:

Ironically the customer phoned me yesterday and i was 20 minutes away (i wasn't planning a visit) so i called in for an hour to take a look.

Firstly the system: The standard of work isnt too bad, ive seen worse, its not how i would have done things & its a little scruffy, but it is labeled up and they used 6mm on a 1.5kwp job, new sub board so it could be worse.
The mounting system is schuco using hanger bolts through slate with what looks like so sort of felt under the bolts in case a slate cracks, neat roof work to be honest, but i dont like hanger bolts through slate - but hey ho its my preference.
Now the ugly: The inverter an "omnik" 1500-TL had a fault on it, "Vac" failure - its cutting out at 250v grid voltage - the incoming supply is high at 248v, the inverter boots up and as soon as it reaches 250v it cuts out - can anyone back me up with my thoughts - i think its a European inverter and not destined for the UK, otherwise it range would be up to 259v? is this correct? it says G83 on the inverter label, but nowhere can i see "GB" in the serial number for example or any proof its set to UK - don't forget these are cheap Chinese with not much option to set them up. I will speak to omnik and give them the serial number to identify which country its set to.

Now for the really good part: I was shown the contract also - picture this in your head - elerly couple in there 70's, shiny suit comes in, gives them waffle about this and that, ohh how its going to power the world for you - 6 Canadian solar 250w poly panels, omnik inverter - how much £££ do you think? yes i nearly fell of my stool at £12000 TWELVE THOUSAND POUNDS - Jesus wep and the sad thing he got the cheque book out and paid on the day!!! luckily he came to he senses and complained, they came back and reduced it by £6000 SIX FREAKIN THOUSAND! whaaaattttt honestly are these folk for real? (no pun)

Poor couple, they also told they need LED and optimiser. joke.

I now feel uncomfortable, because the inverter has a fault, ive explained to them, but im going to ask them to bring along a son or daughter for my next visit because i don't want them to feel like im trying it on also. There really upset and confused by it all - very sad case if im honest.

This system has generated 31 units since beginning of Jan, my system i put in last week (granted it is larger) did 33 units last week - let alone a over a month. Robbing C U next tuesdays.
 
G83/1 limit is 264V. Various European jurisdictions use 253V. That inverter model does have G83/1 certification (from cert on Omnik site). Whether it is in reality on G83 settings is another matter. Often during boot up the inverter will say what it is on, but I do not know the Omnik range. Limits are below:
G83/1
Capture2.JPG
G83/2
Capture.JPG
 
Last edited:
I think most on here have ended up correcting other company's work. Just do what you think is best, at minimum cost
 
Thanks Bruce - as i thought (more or less) i will email Omnik and send the SN for them to check - honestly i cant express how angry i am/disappointed for the customer.

- - - Updated - - -

What the F is REAL all about - it make a mocorary of the system - i will be email Virginia for what good it will do - most likely result in me getting an inspection again...lol.
 
Tell her to come on the forum and face the trade. I think they're an utter waste of money.

REAL is there to protect the customer, but the PV trade is like the Wild West. I've never known an industry like it.
 
G83/1 limit is 264V. Various European jurisdictions use 253V. That inverter model does have G83/1 certification (from cert on Omnik site). Whether it is in reality on G83 settings is another matter. Often during boot up the inverter will say what it is on, but I do not know the Omnik range. Limits are below:
G83/1
View attachment 17295
G83/2
View attachment 17296
it is, but then the main supply regs require the DNO to supply at below 253V 10 minute average, and part of G83 is that we must ensure the supply remains within these requirements as well... so even though it's not mentioned in G83 specifically, there really is a 253V 10 minute average limit as well, although not that many inverters comply with this... meaning that there are many installations out there that the DNO could legally end up cutting off in future if they're only protected at the 264 level.

but that's a bit of a digression.
 
I do not think I agree Gavin. The Electricity Supply Regs are defunct now. ESQC Regs apply. The 253V issue is for the DNO to sort out not us. G83 specifies certain tests for inverters. That's it, full stop. DNOs would be pressed to impose other requirements pulled out of thin air. I do appreciate DNOs might try to argue otherwise on the ground. There is under ESQC a formal procedure they have to go through if they want to cut you off.
 
G83/1 engineering recommendations

5.4 - Quality of supply
The connectoin of the SSSEG in parallel with a DNO's network must not impair the quality of supply provided by the DNO to the user or any other customer.

Now, this sections does then go on to discuss harmonics and flicker regulations (btw this is where anyone installing Immersun devices in high impedance areas hits problems as they don't comply on a high impedance grid connection), but the quality of supply would also cover the voltage, which means the voltage not being over 253V as a 10 minute average.

This may well not be being used much at the moment, but IMO the DNO's would have the power to enforce this regardless of the specific G83 setting requirements, which can be seen as being a minimum requirement.

I know there are people who've had overvoltage issues resulting from the inverter, and after the DNO has taken the readings they've shown that it's the PV system that's regularly causing their local grid voltage to go above the 253V 10 minute average, leading to the DNO threatening to cut them off, and forcing them to pay the costs of the DNO reducing the tapping... well, I say I know, but this is second hand from DNO engineers. There was definitely a circular went round Northern Powergrid engineers to this affect a while back, saying that reducing the tappings was chargable unless the grid was already outside the limits prior to the PV being fitted.

If I remember right, SMA already have this 10 minute average 253V setting as standard on their inverters even at G83 settings, for this reason, Power-One for example doesn't, which can be good in some situations eg at the end of a longish run where you know the voltage at the inverter needs to be higher than 253V but by the time it gets to the local grid it ought to be lower, but it's playing with fire a bit in standard domestic settings with high grid voltage, particularly if there are multiple solar installs on the street.

ps does anyone know if the final G83/2 engineering recommendations have been released anywhere?
 
Paragraph 5.4 is the same in G83/2, which to my reading is specific about 'quality' being to do with harmonics etc not voltage as the second sentence of the paragraph is:
"In this respect the SSEG shall comply with the requirements of the EMC Directive and in particular the product family emission standards listed in Table 2."

If the DNO has time to threaten to cut people off then it is clearly not an emergency and therefore they would have to give notice under ESQC s.26(1). If the consumer then referred the matter to the SofS under s.26(5), the DNO is not allowed to cut them off under s26(2) until the SofS has appointed a suitably qualified person to determine the dispute and it has been so determined.

Whilst I might be wrong, I would be surprised if the Goverment would let consumers using approved equipment in accordance with the regulations be stuffed by the DNO when public policy has been to encourage the connection of small scale generation. On the other hand......


My copy of G83/2 is dated August 2012.
 
the august copy is a draft then, as it was still in consultation at that point.

You may be right about the outcome if anyone actually did take it that far, but at least some of the DNOs are definitely making these sorts of noises and pointing to that section of the regulations as their justification in situations where monitoring is showing that the local grid voltage is regularly being pushed above the 253V 10 minute average limit by solar PV systems.

Northern powergrid have resolved this for the time being by applying a 6V reduction across the entire network, so it's not likely to be an issue again for a bit, but I don't think they have further leeway to repeat this across the board reduction, and this basically is the issue that they were trying to resolve via the changes around local geographic area, but as we all know, these changes won't really have any impact on the issue, so I expect this to be revisited, and probably to start becoming an issue in certain areas with high levels of G83 systems on local transformers this summer - I wouldn't be surprised if one of the DNO's decides to find a test case on it to clarify this point tbh.

IMO though the wording re 'quality of supply' would cover the 253V levels as these are clearly specified in the ESQC regulations, so forms part of the legal form of the 'quality of supply'

Regulation 27 imposes requirements to give information relating to a supply and to maintain the quality of supply within certain tolerance limits.
Regulation 27 <snip>
(2) Unless otherwise agreed in writing between the distributor, the supplier and the consumer (and if necessary between the distributor and any other distributor likely to be affected) the frequency declared pursuant to paragraph (1) shall be 50 hertz and the voltage declared in respect of a low voltage supply shall be 230 volts between the phase and neutral conductors at the supply terminals.
(3) For the purposes of this regulation, unless otherwise agreed in writing by those persons specified in paragraph (2), the permitted variations are—
(a) a variation not exceeding 1 per cent above or below the declared frequency;
(b) in the case of a low voltage supply, a variation not exceeding 10 per cent above or 6 per cent below the declared voltage at the declared frequency;
https://www.electriciansforums.net/attachments/uksi_20022665_en-pdf.120341/

put simply, IMO any DNO would be on fairly firm legal grounds to object if they could show that one or more solar systems installed under g83 were causing the local voltage to regularly exceed 253V, and for instance insist that the invert settings were updated to prevent the systems exceeding 253V in these situations.

The fact they might not have done this much yet shouldn't be taken as an indicator that they aren't planning to do so in future if the number of G83 installations starts forcing the local grid voltages above their set limits in significant numbers, particularly in areas where they don't actually have the ability to reduce the tapping further or any other simple mechanism to solve the problem... at this point I'd expect them to start knocking on doors putting the problem back into the court of the sseg owners who's systems are causing the problems.

It's actually something that's easily solvable via the inverter settings to introduce a gradual reduction in output from eg 251, 252, 253V - certainly far simpler than the DNO having to dig up and replace their cable with a lower impedance cable... something that could easily be undone with a couple more systems installed anyway.
 

Attachments

Regulation 27 is putting obligations on the distributor and supplier rather than the consumer, so I cannot see any legal grounds the DNO could cite under that reg to get a consumer to disconnect a properly connected G83 system.

Your point about the inverter reducing the voltage is interesting and as you say easily achievable in principle in software nowadays. But it is a level of sophistication beyond most standard inverters today. In order to reduce the voltage they would have to reduce the output current (depending on your view of the chicken and egg argument) which means the inverter would have to deliberately operate away from the mppt optimum. None of the current standard ones appear to be able to do that to control the voltage I think.

My G83-2 does not appear to be a draft, at least it does not say draft anywhere.
PDF file in ENA livery
Title is: Engineering Recommendation G83 Issue 2 (August 2012)
Filename is: ER G83-2_v5-The master 09-07-12 inc Ofgem comments - clean version.pdf
Amdt level: Issue 2 August, 2012
Did something actually change after then?

For info the ENA's view of the legal aspects from the doc is below:
Capture.JPG
 
Regulation 27 is putting obligations on the distributor and supplier rather than the consumer, so I cannot see any legal grounds the DNO could cite under that reg to get a consumer to disconnect a properly connected G83 system.

The legal grounds are section 5.4 of the G83 engineering recommendations I quoted before. If the SSEG is itself responsible for pushing the grid voltage over the 253V limit then it would be impairing the quality of supply provided by the DNO to the user and other customers.

IMO it's pretty clear cut, it's just that the DNO's haven't been pushing this too much, but if it becomes seriously problematic then there's no reason to think they won't start enforcing this - when all other options are used up, they still have an obligation to maintain the supply within that voltage range, and if that means enforcement action against SSEG owners, then that's what they'll inevitably end up doing IMO.
 
It's even written into the quote you just gave

However, under the terms of ESQCR regulation 26 the DNO may require an SSEG to be disconnected if it is a source of danger, or inteferes with the quality of supply to other customers

they clearly do have this power if they chose to apply it, and if no other options remain to keep the supply withiin the parameters allowed, then I see no reason to think that they won't use this power.

This is clearly becoming a serious issue for DNO's, as was made clear by Ofgem in discussions re the close geographic region aspect of the G83/2 regulations, and as the revisions to those regulations will have minimal if any impact on this issue, I'd expect to see DNO's starting to make use of their powers outlined above, as they actually do have a legal obligation to maintain the supply within those parameters.
 
You are being too generous to them.

ESQCR 26 does not use the word quality anywhere. G83 is not the Electricity Act, nor the regulations (ESQCR) made under the act so it is becoming a bit remote to be considered direct 'legal grounds'. The reference to 'quality of supply' in G83 has a specific meaning from the second sentence of para 5.4 and it is to do with harmonics and voltage fluctuations and flicker, NOT [average] voltage. So if all you are doing is raising the voltage, that is not a quality issue within the meaning ascribed to the word in G83, so they have no grounds to disconnect unless you were taking the voltage so high it became dangerous, which a G83 installation is unlikely to do.

In my opinion, for G83 systems, the voltage problem is theirs under the legislation not yours. I suspect that the grown ups within the DNO know that and that is why they have not thrown their weight around too much to date.
 
Had a fast reply from Omnik - posting here for anyone in the future.

[FONT=&quot]Hello Russel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]May I know the total energy generated shown on the inverter display? If it is lower than 1KWh, please try this way.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Disconnect AC side[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Press the white function button until showing “1.5K-TL”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Press about 10 seconds until it occurs different countries standard [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Press step by step, choose “GB-83” or “Australia”( wider Vac range)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Long pressing for about 10 seconds to make it effective[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If the total energy generated exceeded 1kwh, I think you need to choose another way, which you need is a laptop and USB-RS232 cable, you can download and refer this document below.[/FONT]
Downloads - Omnik New Energy[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Omnik_Safety_regulation_Model_type_Data_clearance_Reset_tool_20121217[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The decode password is “168168”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Best Regards[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Walter[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Skype ID: walter.yang_omnik[/FONT]
 

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