F

FreshSpark

I've recently completed a domestic electricians course over the past 6 weeks and have C&G 2393,2382 & 2392. My knowledge of circuit design is good (Ib,In,It , volt drop etc). I've pretty good construction skills also.

Having completed a basic rewire of my small 2 bed home (tested (loop continuity on the rings and r1-r2 on the radials, and insulation tests on the lot) I feel I could do this for someone else, and charge for it.

Obviously there are some gaping holes in my experience but would advertising as a domestic electrician be biting off more than I can chew?

Has anyone here followed this (or a similar) path? Any opinions?
 
OK so 198 is below the allowed 200, but it will increase as the ground dry's up right?, so that 198 will almost certainly take the Ra/Ze to over 200. (whats the difference between ra/ze btw, are these terms interchangable?) Could you provide a 2nd parallel path for the rod maybe? I'm not sure.
Which proves my point. Once again I'm not raining on your parade mate, just trying to give a reality check.
Let me put it another way, you're looking to change accountants. You speak to one who has years of experience and all the relevant memberships of the right associations and who assures you he has all the necessary skills to make sure you pay the right amount of tax and keep your accounts in proper order. The other says "I've done a six week course and that qualifies me to do personal tax but nothing else. Personal tax is pretty easy"
Which one gets to do your end of year return?
Do a search on here on TT systems and you'll get your answer.
 
have to say you are obviously no fool and have taken everything on board (unlike most we have on here from thee courses) stay on the forum and any question you have if I can help I will good luck.
 
OK so 198 is below the allowed 200, but it will increase as the ground dry's up right?, so that 198 will almost certainly take the Ra/Ze to over 200. (whats the difference between Ra/Ze btw, are these terms interchangable?) Could you provide a 2nd parallel path for the rod maybe? I'm not sure.

I would direct your attention to;

Chapter 41 Reg 411.5 TT pp57
Chapter 54 Reg 542.1.2.3 pp158
Chapter 54 Reg 542.2 pp159

if your 6 week course was any good (hahahahaha) then you should be able to figure out the solution to your dilemma.
 
Nice one Stuart, no doubt i'll be bending your ear in future. :smilewinkgrin:

Ok, so i just searched TT systems and it seems that on wet ground an Ra over 100Ω is not good and below 100Ω should be expected. 1667Ω !! is the maximum for a 30mA RCD. In future then should I Ra/Ze test on a TT and get over 100Ω on damp/wet ground then i'll inspect further, maybe corroded or otherwise damaged cpc cabling or connections.
 
Nice one Stuart, no doubt i'll be bending your ear in future. :smilewinkgrin:

Ok, so i just searched TT systems and it seems that on wet ground an Ra over 100Ω is not good and below 100Ω should be expected. 1667Ω !! is the maximum for a 30mA RCD. In future then should I Ra/Ze test on a TT and get over 100Ω on damp/wet ground then i'll inspect further, maybe corroded or otherwise damaged cpc cabling or connections.

Make sure you read it all properly and fully understand it...

You should always endeavour to get the RA as low as practicable, even if this means using multiple rods screwed together and hammered multiple meters into the ground..
 
I've just about read all the way through this thread and others like it and IMO what seems to clearly be lacking from the 5wws who are let loose on the general public is confidence, knowledge, some times attitude perhaps other things as well, all of this comes with experience. To sum up it's like allowing an apprentice "out on his own" well before he's ready. These Electrical Trainee should not be allowed to be registered as sparks with any scam until they have gained enough confidence, knowledge and experience by working for "companies" for a minimum of 3 - 5 Years and then apply for scam registration (with other graded electricians giving them their recommendation) to be self employed. There has as long as I can remember been these sort of courses, many years ago we used to call them GTC's they had attended Government Training Courses for various reasons. However I cannot remember a large influx of them all going "self employed" one man bands and all that. The chaps I came across over many years, a few turned out to be very good sparks but that was the ones who learned from other time served men on the job. Some where absolute rubbish, no doubt they went on to other things like plumbers lol In short these scams for domestic installer or whatever they what to call themselves stinks.
 
Thanks for the info Outspoken. How I would approach Trevs initial problem of the 198Ω ra in the wet. With 542.2 in mind, consider possible alternative 'practicable' earthing arrangements, maybe an old (unused) water pipe is nearby or there is some kind of underground metalwork I can earth to. Most likely though, I'd check the cpc and rod for obvious signs of damage. If damaged, consider replacing like for like, new cpc and rod, might as well replace with longer rod if practicable. I mean i'm not 100% sure, but i'd cross ref against the regs to make sure my arranagement was legal (and permanent, so that should a further trade change things my earthing still remains) and not leave it until the Ra was below 100 wet.
 
Just get it sorted lol
Thanks for the info Outspoken. How I would approach Trevs initial problem of the 198Ω ra in the wet. With 542.2 in mind, consider possible alternative 'practicable' earthing arrangements, maybe an old (unused) water pipe is nearby or there is some kind of underground metalwork I can earth to. Most likely though, I'd check the cpc and rod for obvious signs of damage. If damaged, consider replacing like for like, new cpc and rod, might as well replace with longer rod if practicable. I mean i'm not 100% sure, but i'd cross ref against the regs to make sure my arranagement was legal (and permanent, so that should a further trade change things my earthing still remains) and not leave it until the Ra was below 100 wet.
 
I've just about read all the way through this thread and others like it and IMO what seems to clearly be lacking from the 5wws who are let loose on the general public is confidence, knowledge, some times attitude perhaps other things as well, all of this comes with experience. To sum up it's like allowing an apprentice "out on his own" well before he's ready. These Electrical Trainee should not be allowed to be registered as sparks with any scam until they have gained enough confidence, knowledge and experience by working for "companies" for a minimum of 3 - 5 Years and then apply for scam registration (with other graded electricians giving them their recommendation) to be self employed. There has as long as I can remember been these sort of courses, many years ago we used to call them GTC's they had attended Government Training Courses for various reasons. However I cannot remember a large influx of them all going "self employed" one man bands and all that. The chaps I came across over many years, a few turned out to be very good sparks but that was the ones who learned from other time served men on the job. Some where absolute rubbish, no doubt they went on to other things like plumbers lol In short these scams for domestic installer or whatever they what to call themselves stinks.

You know what KAS1, give me a trainee job at 32 and i'll go with it. The reality is that most sparks would prefer a much younger trainee/apprentice (i guess because they feel they learn quicker). I'm far brighter than most 18 years olds, I understand this stuff and WANT to have it. If I could get a job at £10ph as a mate, i'd do it all day long. I can't. So finding the business for myself is my other option. As I said to Trev earlier on the thread though, my plan is not to go into a job by myself but to approach local spark with the lead and go along, as a trainee i'd then split the invoice 70/30 in their favour.
 
You know what KAS1, give me a trainee job at 32 and i'll go with it. The reality is that most sparks would prefer a much younger trainee/apprentice (i guess because they feel they learn quicker). I'm far brighter than most 18 years olds, I understand this stuff and WANT to have it. If I could get a job at £10ph as a mate, i'd do it all day long. I can't. So finding the business for myself is my other option. As I said to Trev earlier on the thread though, my plan is not to go into a job by myself but to approach local spark with the lead and go along, as a trainee i'd then split the invoice 70/30 in their favour.

OK, as long as you provide the mats :smart:
 
My plan is to make something of the course i've completed and recoup the cost through paid work. What i'd like to do is advertise, quote, speak to local spark. I would secure the work, and maybe split with the local spark 70/30, so I shadow what they do.

If a noob electrcian called you with that offer would you think I was barmy, or would you take it on?

I would essentially be looking at this from a long term perspective. Basically, what you're wanting to do is head out with a spark who can teach you well from his years of experience, teach you the tricks of the trade and how to price jobs. Then after however long it will take for you to get fed up of paying 70% of every job you do to this other spark you'll start to think "Hey, I've got bills to pay, this stuff aint that hard so I'll sack him off and get to it myself". I guarantee you that this thought will enter your mind within 6 months or so.

So, where does this leave the other spark? Well, he's invested 6 months of his time into training you how to be a spark, you have jumped out from under his wing still without much of a clue and he is now being repayed for his generosity by having his work nicked from under his nose by a pretender who is inevitably going to be cheaper because he needs the new customer base.

I admire your honesty and your attempt to recognise your own ability but in my eyes, you have none. The money always talks and before long you'll be out there doing EICRs for £100 a pop and putting peoples lives in danger. What you need is long term employment as a mate from someone who recognises your willingness to learn as clearly you have the potential to become a great spark, then when you have the quals and the apprenticeship completed you can go and maybe do things for yourself. From what you've written on here though this isn't your intention, and I'd be very surprised if anyone takes you up on your offer considering how much they stand to lose.

I have always maintained that I am a businessman long before I'm a spark, you have already stated what areas you wish to work in and they are all within my area of cover. I'd be wanting to make a hell of a lot more money out of you before I'd be prepared to let you loose around my patch to nick my customers! The same goes for any apprentice of mine. I'm not here to employ people and teach them out of the kindness of my own heart, I'm here to make serious amounts of money out of them! Only then when I am satisfied that they have paid for themselves will I give them my all and repay them in kind giving them the knowledge and ability to either go and be a great spark for themselves, or stay on with me and earn a really decent living!

I mean no disrespect buddy but I think you really need to learn some home truths. I've got a mortgage to pay and kids to feed and as much as I admire your eagerness to get into the trade and learn it properly, I don't take to kindly to local five week wonders nicking my work and food from under my kids mouths!
 
Ok so let me get this straight. By passing courses (2392,93,83) that the government sanctions and then passing further assessment for niceic membership (which entails 3 further checks of work completed to an acceptable standard), the general consensus is this person is still unfit to safely install/troubleshoot in a domestic environment?

Absolutley correct!! If you are under any impression at all, that the qualifications you presently hold and that you passed in 5 weeks are acceptable to go into peoples homes undertaking electrical work, your very much mistaken!! As for the NICEIC and other scheme providers checks, don't make us laugh, No-one fails those DI assessments, that's just a money collection scam....


I disagree. If you have a good head on your shoulders (by that i mean a good memory for the facts, rules and figures and an understanding of from where these figures come and why they are as they are) domestic electrics is possible to practice safely. What isn't taught (and can't really be in a classroom/workshop environment) are the multitudes of varying installations that have been added to by DIY'ers connecting sso's to a ring without completing it, or crossing circuits, using incorrectly rated mcb's etc. I'd be able to troubleshoot these to some extent, but of course a more experienced electrician would pick these things up right away, right?

Of course you disagree, you've been brainwashed/convinced by the training centre you trained with, you probably still think you'll be earning £50K a year too ...lol!! Your total training has ZERO standing outside of the scheme providers minimal requirement. Even the term DI is has been created just for under trained and experienced people such as yourself.

What i'm saying is, if the Electrical Trainee was proving to be life threatening and people houses were burning down and blocks of flats full of kids were going up in smoke then these courses would be banned. In reality they're providing a portion of knowledge suitable for starting out in domestic electrics, not a degree or NVQ in electrical engineering of industrial systems.

Your providing nothing of the sort, all your doing practicing your ill-trained to non-existent skills in unsuspecting customers homes, which in itself is a total disgrace. In reality Electrical Trainee are a danger to themselves and to customers/clients. I wonder how many customers would employ someone to work in their home, if they knew they have had only 5 weeks training, ...not many i'd be thinking!! By the way, NVQs are not a part of an Engineers training, but it is a ''basic'' requirement for electricians!! Ever heard the term ''A little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge''?? Well, if there was ever a trade that could be solely applied too, it's the electrical trade!! If you need any further evidence, just read the incompetent queries that appear on this and other electrical forums, on a daily basis, you can spot the Electrical Trainee at a 1000 yds.

Unlike some here, i'm not convinced you do understand your limits, not from your OP anyway. If you want to become a safe and competent electrician, find a fully qualified experienced electrician that you can work with for a year or two. At the same time, sign up at your local collage for a ''Core'' qualification course. Do that and you'll be surprised at the respect you get here and elsewhere. A good example is Glennspark, a one time mature student who didn't have the privilege of an apprenticeship, but went to college of his own bat, gained his 2330 pt 2/3, 2931 among other meaningful qualifications, ....AND found a mentor to gain that all important experience. That's the type of guy i and others respect....
 
I find it interesting the number of people on here who refer to "scam providers" like the NICEIC etc.

Tell you what those that winge come off the scam charge your clients another £200 plus for Building Regs approval.

But do one thing either follow your principles or shut up! It is boring.
 
I find it interesting the number of people on here who refer to "scam providers" like the NICEIC etc.

Tell you what those that winge come off the scam charge your clients another £200 plus for Building Regs approval.

But do one thing either follow your principles or shut up! It is boring.


Say's the very satisfied NICEIC DI!!! ...lol!!
 
The SJIB/JIB ECS grade card should be enough for all of us, once you have that nobody I mean nobody should need to join a scam IMO it is a scam for those who have not reached the SJIB/JIB ECS grade, a sort of improver lol
I find it interesting the number of people on here who refer to "scam providers" like the NICEIC etc.

Tell you what those that winge come off the scam charge your clients another £200 plus for Building Regs approval.

But do one thing either follow your principles or shut up! It is boring.
 
Aren't a lot of you here bored with yourselves telling others what to do every other week?

Live and let live thats how i see life.

Nothing worse than greedy people. Fact
 
I find it interesting the number of people on here who refer to "scam providers" like the NICEIC etc.

Tell you what those that winge come off the scam charge your clients another £200 plus for Building Regs approval.

But do one thing either follow your principles or shut up! It is boring.

Aren't a lot of you here bored with yourselves telling others what to do every other week?

Live and let live thats how i see life.

Nothing worse than greedy people. Fact

Guys, if you do not like what is said in the thread, don't ruddy post in it, it isn't rocket science you know.
 
Aren't a lot of you here bored with yourselves telling others what to do every other week?

Live and let live thats how i see life.

Nothing worse than greedy people. Fact
Well I'm definitely bored with this topic but it still keeps coming around time and again.

There are two schools of thought on this with contrasting perspectives:

The Electrical Trainee sees the 'time-served' tradesman as an embittered, slovenly, unshaven oaf who turns up late in his clapped out old transit with pasty wrappers and old copies of the Sun in the dashboard and charges little old ladies a fortune for just making a mess of some DIY, but because there is a "massive skills crisis" they have a monopoly so are vastly overpaid, which obviously they are happy with and want it to stay that way, but can be undercut while doing a better job, ie turning up on time in a newer, signwritten van, well groomed and dressed in a smart embroidered polo shirt, oh yeah and 'register' as an electrician or something which should be the easy part.

The 'Time-served' camp view the 5WWs as naive. There's more to being an electrician than driving around in a van connecting 3 wires, which we know because we have actual experience doing it, not just an imagination of what's involved, which is why people come here to ask us.
As I said this topic keeps coming around - we get people who have spent a fortune on these courses hoping it will fast track them into a new career but come here complaining to us that they feel the company has ripped them off. Well yes we could have told you that if you'd asked beforehand, although you probably would have accused us of being 'elitist', wanting to 'keep all the money for ourselves', then gone and done it anyway.
Sure, some people have done short courses and seem to have found work (although I can't vouch for their quality of work) but they are very much the exception rather than the rule.

If you go to a college over a number of years they put you in your place as soon as you walk in there; they make sure you are aware you don't know everything, then they start teaching you how much you didn't realise there was to know, and by the end of it you leave knowing your limitations.
These training centres tell you what you want to hear to make you think you've invested your money wisely - they tell you you're clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years study into a few weeks and then you can go out earning £50,747 picking and choosing your hours and being your own boss.
 
Well I'm definitely bored with this topic but it still keeps coming around time and again.

There are two schools of thought on this with contrasting perspectives:

The Electrical Trainee sees the 'time-served' tradesman as an embittered, slovenly, unshaven oaf who turns up late in his clapped out old transit with pasty wrappers and old copies of the Sun in the dashboard and charges little old ladies a fortune for just making a mess of some DIY, but because there is a "massive skills crisis" they have a monopoly so are vastly overpaid, which obviously they are happy with and want it to stay that way, but can be undercut while doing a better job, ie turning up on time in a newer, signwritten van, well groomed and dressed in a smart embroidered polo shirt, oh yeah and 'register' as an electrician or something which should be the easy part.

The 'Time-served' camp view the 5WWs as naive. There's more to being an electrician than driving around in a van connecting 3 wires, which we know because we have actual experience doing it, not just an imagination of what's involved, which is why people come here to ask us.
As I said this topic keeps coming around - we get people who have spent a fortune on these courses hoping it will fast track them into a new career but come here complaining to us that they feel the company has ripped them off. Well yes we could have told you that if you'd asked beforehand, although you probably would have accused us of being 'elitist', wanting to 'keep all the money for ourselves', then gone and done it anyway.
Sure, some people have done short courses and seem to have found work (although I can't vouch for their quality of work) but they are very much the exception rather than the rule.

If you go to a college over a number of years they put you in your place as soon as you walk in there; they make sure you are aware you don't know everything, then they start teaching you how much you didn't realise there was to know, and by the end of it you leave knowing your limitations.
These training centres tell you what you want to hear to make you think you've invested your money wisely - they tell you you're clever enough to cram 3 or 4 years study into a few weeks and then you can go out earning £50,747 picking and choosing your hours and being your own boss.
I completely agree and how they can say a spark earns £50,747 is beyond me! I only managed £50,447 last year, some £300 short! No Foie gras for me this year!
 
Biff, did you actually read my last post...I was not trying to prolong it at all, but stop it going further by simply posting something daft....chill out man,
 
Nothing wrong with being elite, Ive been doing this since before I was 16 years old (1973) and Im a damn sight more competent and knowledgeable than any Electrical Trainee or adult trainee. Elite, aye why the hell not?

Boydy
 
If you are all trying to drag this out into some epic rant / debate to fill a sunday night , dont bother , youre still at least 10 pages short of the forum record for a never ending shout fest ;-)

and here it is in its full calc waving glory .....
*drum roll*
the epic 9.5kw shower thread.......
http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...electrical-forum/56288-9-5-kw-shower-6mm.html

that should keep outspoken occupied for a while lol.
;-)

Bloody hell....that was a lot of ht air over a simple issue...and Biff, I liked a couple of your posts as I 100% agreed with your comments...but lets not start talking about that here FFS!! :D
 
Nothing worse than greedy people. Fact

Yeah, why can't we all share?!?!

In fact, starting tomorrow, I'll ring round all the local 5WWs and hand out a load of my custom. It's only fair that I should share my trade that I've spent many years learning with a load of chancers that have taken a 5 week 'cheaters' course to become 'fully qualified' as they like to say. It's fair game surely! I mean it's totally right that DIY Dan from down the pub with his DI certificate swans round with 'Fully Qualified' plastered all over his van, website and polo shirt charging £10 per hour to carry out dangerous work that to the unsuspecting and ill informed public is just as good as mine but at a fraction of the price. I mean why should they pay me? That's just outrageous. We're all the same us sparkies, in fact DIY Dan is NICEIC which does make him fully qualified! Where as I'm only Elecsa, which makes me pants!
 
Yeah, why can't we all share?!?!

In fact, starting tomorrow, I'll ring round all the local 5WWs and hand out a load of my custom. It's only fair that I should share my trade that I've spent many years learning with a load of chancers that have taken a 5 week 'cheaters' course to become 'fully qualified' as they like to say. It's fair game surely! I mean it's totally right that DIY Dan from down the pub with his DI certificate swans round with 'Fully Qualified' plastered all over his van, website and polo shirt charging £10 per hour to carry out dangerous work that to the unsuspecting and ill informed public is just as good as mine but at a fraction of the price. I mean why should they pay me? That's just outrageous. We're all the same us sparkies, in fact DIY Dan is NICEIC which does make him fully qualified! Where as I'm only Elecsa, which makes me pants!


Wouldn't that be kind of you? lol

I see what you saying but i dont think its these peoples fault its the system that needs a looking at.
 
Wouldn't that be kind of you? lol

I see what you saying but i dont think its these peoples fault its the system that needs a looking at.
You could go on forever like that - a customer employs an 'electrician' (or 'DI') in good faith assuming they are competent to do the job in hand otherwise the competent persons' schemes wouldn't allow them to.
A Electrical Trainee DI knows they haven't done as much training as they should have, but thinks they know enough to be able to pay their way around gaining knowledge and experience and assumes the training courses must be OK otherwise the training centres wouldn't offer them.
The training centres say they offer the 'courses' because people are willing to pay for them, and if they shouldn't be offering them the likes of C&G and EAL wouldn't allow them to.

Anyone can buy a van and go around charging for 'doing electrics' and homeowners will probably pay for their 'services' knowing they won't get any paperwork and maybe getting a discount for paying in cash on the assumption that no tax is being paid, but the fact that they can get away with it doesn't make it OK.
 
greggs sweet and sour lattices chicken(allegedly) but I like it
Anything from Greggs is the devil's work. Do you embrace Satan?.....Seriously though mate it's all foul (no pun intended) Greggs used to be good but then they went national.
Used to be based at a site above a Greggs. Early one morning there's a loud shout. Looking out the window we see the delivery guy has fallen off the tail lift, pulling the delivery trolley on top of him. Pies, barm cakes etc everywhere. He picks himself up, rights the trolley then dusts down all the grit laden products before taking them into the shop for sale. Haven't touched a Greggs since!
 

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