New fire alarm qualification great for sparks

[Nigel]

Hackitt recommended the creation of a Joint Competent Authority (JCA), which will merge the LABC (Building Control) with the local fire authority and the Health and Safety Executive. This means more visits on building sites and more scrutiny on how things are being built.

I have also heard that we may go back to adopting a regional fire officer that will ultimately grant a license before a building can be used which will include fore alarm checks.

Scotland already has this.

 

[Nigel]

This is OTT - domestically it is so basic I don't see an issue, over and above domestic then you are often required to liaise with the fire services and building control so other than routing and installing the wiring which is covered even in the BS7671 then I see this as just another money cash cow scheme targeting our trade.

Cowboy installers will still be cowboy installers and won't take the course.

This seems to be an argument for why bother because cowboys will always be cowboys?

 

[Darkwood]

This seems to be an argument for why bother because cowboys will always be cowboys?

Not what I was meaning, I meant there are already sufficient regulation, procedures and checks if you follow the BS 5839 and BS7671 so why create another system on top that is only going to cost those who already adhere to the regulations.
It is the cowboys that won't be affected and won't be hit with the cost, what they should do is create an inspection body and have them checking out new and existing installs for compliance which should push the cowboys out of the industry but that is an added costing to government spending and not a profit incentive system so again the compliant professional trades person takes the hit while the cowboys who could be argued brought this about still carry on without challenge.

The whole Electrical industry is punished with organised costs like having to take courses and exams for small amendments and additional regulations at regular intervals and instead of just selling the amendments we are forced to buy new regs at high costs...

Have you ever wondered why so many regulations are ambiguous and why when questioned we find we get no straight answers then all of a sudden there are books been sold on the subject ... this isn't coincidence at all.

 

[Nigel]

Not what I was meaning, I meant there are already sufficient regulation, procedures and checks if you follow the BS 5839 and BS7671 so why create another system on top that is only going to cost those who already adhere to the regulations.
It is the cowboys that won't be affected and won't be hit with the cost, what they should do is create an inspection body and have them checking out new and existing installs for compliance which should push the cowboys out of the industry but that is an added costing to government spending and not a profit incentive system so again the compliant professional trades person takes the hit while the cowboys who could be argued brought this about still carry on without challenge.

The whole Electrical industry is punished with organised costs like having to take courses and exams for small amendments and additional regulations at regular intervals and instead of just selling the amendments we are forced to buy new regs at high costs...

Have you ever wondered why so many regulations are ambiguous and why when questioned we find we get no straight answers then all of a sudden there are books been sold on the subject ... this isn't coincidence at all.

I agree with that but there is just too many people, especially electricians that do things like emergency lighting and fire alarms who honestly just check on-line and think that is it.

We berate non-qualified people for doing electrics then insist on doing things like emergency lighting and fire alarms when also not qualified.

 

[Diver233]

If it is similar to the 18th Ed course as mentioned in #1 then it will be a pointless exercise, you need a course which includes practical and class activities and a recognised piece of paper at the end. Not some attendance certificate. It is understood generally that doing electrical installation you require BS7671 but installing safety systems there seems to be a disregard to having the required Standards hence why most if not all small scale installations are not compliant.

Yes in a perfect world it would work like that, however this assumes as a spark you already have a full set of practical wiring skills and just need to prove you also know BS5839-1.
This new exam will be the knowledge base skills, the practical you will prove by a AM2 type assessment.

 

[Dustydazzler]

who installs hard wired fire alarms these days though? 2 weeks of 2 hairy arsed installers running 200m of FP200, disrupting business and decor, as opposed to 1 guy, 1 day installing wireless detection. total no brainer.

Wireless is so much easier and better nowadays

20 Years ago I did some intrusion alarms as an apprentice having to staple miles of cable to homeowners skirting boards and door frames it looked god awful and just so messy.

Now it’s a 2hr job to install a full wireless intrusion alarm system with not a single cable in sight

The wonders of advancing technology

 

[Lister1987]

They should just turn the whole Electrical profession on its head and adopt a scheme similar to driving licensing. You'll do BS7671 as a base requirement, then do additionals for fire alarms, emergency lighting etc.

Punishment for non licensed work (i.e cowboys) would be substantial jail time. Question of policing it will obviously come up and batted to LABC and local FRS.

It's not an overnight fix but it's a start

 

[telectrix]

They should just turn the whole Electrical profession on its head and adopt a scheme similar to driving licensing. You'll do BS7671 as a base requirement, then do additionals for fire alarms, emergency lighting etc.

Punishment for non licensed work (i.e cowboys) would be substantial jail time. Question of policing it will obviously come up and batted to LABC and local FRS.

It's not an overnight fix but it's a start

it won't happen until there's enough swill in the trough for parasitic suits.

 

[Hemingway]

who installs hard wired fire alarms these days though? 2 weeks of 2 hairy arsed installers running 200m of FP200, disrupting business and decor, as opposed to 1 guy, 1 day installing wireless detection. total no brainer.

I am not aware of any major fire alarm installation using wire free wireless detection. Maybe in domestic dwellings. The format on major fire installation is addressable systems. Sometimes linked back to a visual graphics package on a monitor screen.

 

[Hemingway]

The advisory body for fire alarm installation is LPC which is the loss prevention council. They set the standards on which the major fire installation companies base design and install standards. When we install fire systems we always use LPC approved cable. One of which is fp.

 

[telectrix]

I recently installed a fire alarm to L2 (specified by Fire Officer) in a bar/restaurant with B&B above. all wireless detection, premises recently decorated and client would not accept disruption to business. 22 detectors, 3 MCP. whole install done in 10 hours.

 

[Hemingway]

I recently installed a fire alarm to L2 (specified by Fire Officer) in a bar/restaurant with B&B above. all wireless detection, premises recently decorated and client would not accept disruption to business. 22 detectors, 3 MCP. whole install done in 10 hours.

With respect that’s an extremely small system. I was asked to price a fire system in a large historic country estate house. Because of the oak floor boards and general history of the building ,the estate management asked for wire free. All the major fire alarm suppliers wouldn’t contemplate wire free. A small local contractor fitted a small wire free system. When the insurance company saw it they immediately condemned it. The estate then had trouble renewing its insurance.

 

[telectrix]

that's insurance companies for you. 50 years behind the times. on the one i posted, the insurance assessor was happy with it. just 1 thing he picked up on was no detector in beer cellar (ground floor) but there was one within 8 feet. . soon added a detector to keep him happy.

 

[Hemingway]

that's insurance companies for you. 50 years behind the times. on the one i posted, the insurance assessor was happy with it. just 1 thing he picked up on was no detector in beer cellar (ground floor) but there was one within 8 feet. . soon added a detector to keep him happy.

The insurance companies work with LPC , the fire brigade also have a huge input into the regulations. All the major fire installers install to LPC standards. The highest standard involves detection in ceiling voids and under computer floors. Also in areas were you can’t easily maintain smoke/heat detection a system called vesda is installed. Are you aware of that system.