New Village hall build Kitchen Ring

[sarusystems]

Hi I have just done first fix on a small village hall kitchen
the sockets are a ring circuit the site forman has questioned why I have conected sockets horizontaly on one wall when he says as this is a commercial job I should chase them in with vertcal drops. Please advise

 

[wattsup]

the site foreman is correct

 

[ringer]

the site foreman is correct

Is there a reg for this, or is it just considered good practice (if so, then why?)

 

[Amp David]

Thought the BRB applied to all installations. Never heard this before TBH

 

[jpmiff]

I don't see any problem with the method of installation. Don't know of any thing in the BRB which contradicts this method

 

[malcolmsanford]

Quote Zones, BS7671-2008 and show him section 522.6.6 in the regs, explain about RCD protection etc etc.

But a cautionary word make sure that as it's a village hall and most likely council, that all work is to the BS7671-2208 and not some obscure council/ building regulations.

 

[ringer]

the site foreman is correct

522.6.6 (v) states "... Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, the cable may be installed in a zone either horizontally or vertically, to the point, accessory or switchgear. ..."

so what is it that makes both the foreman and you so sure that it has to be vertical?

 

[J@mes]

Well, he's the foreman. He knows jack about electrics, but he wants it his way because he knows best

 

[telectrix]

his last job was probably a dog **** enforcement "officer", till he retrained on the council's jobsworth scheme

 

[sarusystems]

his last job was probably a dog **** enforcement "officer", till he retrained on the council's jobsworth scheme

wow its like you know him it is very tiring as he is questioning every thing . he even brought the tackers in half way through the first fix.

the planning approval just says that the work is to the seventh edition and I must be part P registered.

 

[wattsup]

Where did I say it has to be vertical?

522.6.6 (v) states "... Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, the cable may be installed in a zone either horizontally or vertically, to the point, accessory or switchgear. ..."

so what is it that makes both the foreman and you so sure that it has to be vertical?

 

[Stu Too]

wow its like you know him it is very tiring as he is questioning every thing . he even brought the tackers in half way through the first fix.

the planning approval just says that the work is to the seventh edition and I must be part P registered.

7th edition?? - wasn't that around the late 19th Century, when bell wire was OK for Ring Mains? Sorry only kidding.

I have nothing to add to the regulation side, apart from I believe the Horizontal is correct - however who is accurate and who isnt is probably a moot point in this (although in my view you are - right that is). Just a few observations:

a) what were you actually contracted to do - if it was to deliver to 17th edition BR and nothing specific was mentioned - would say you are ok, and you can argue this point. This could take a number of forms
b) Telling him that directly - quoting BR - actually flashing it in his face - preferably done when his subordinates are around to infuriate him further. (although it does have a satisfactory feeling)
c) Maybe going above his head to the Commissioner and suggesting his route with chasing and vertical cables would increase the costs significantly and that as you are getting a fixed rate for this (guessing this) - and that they are actually changing the terms of the contract from a) above - to being specific in how they want it down - rather than to the most cost effective method under the 17th ed BR - is a change in contract and you will have to adjust your costs accordingly.
d) Doyou want to do more work for this "Foreman" or not. Would guess if you argue point a) directly with him by doing b) or c) and win (or lose the argument) that he will black list you in some way from any other local community/council building work - whether legitamately or by just badmouthing you to people who count. Also Commisioners dont like hassle - beaurocrats rarely do - spanners in the works and all that.

jobsworths like this like to be told "Yes Sir, No Sir, Vertical cables it is sir". It comes down to whether your principles for being right and using the correct method that is most cost effective outweigh the value of current and future work from this source.

I would love to hear the story of b - if you get to it - But would suggest sometimes being right doesnt always put bread on the table - who ever said being self employed meant not having to take **** from bosses anymore!

Again only my thoughts on potential outcomes of pushing the point. Hope this helps.

 

[ringer]

Where did I say it has to be vertical?

You didn't, sorry about that mate. Should have realised the whole point of this thread is you think it should be horizontal. You are correct and the foreman is wrong. Did he tell you why he thinks they should be vertical?

 

[wattsup]

The thing is the foreman is the foreman, if he wants vertical then thats the standard, Although I do agree it should have been made clear in the tender, if no specifics were made, then tell him to bollox and collect your fee on completion. But you will get no more work from the said contractor.

As always good workmanship is the crux, and for that point, cables should be installed vertical whenever practical, because trades that follow know not to nail, drill directly vertical below or over any electrical point. It may be old school, but I also insist on the same on any of my jobs. ~If I'm in charge then thats what i want, no argument.

You see where do you draw the line, on a big site? ?Ok this room runs vertical, but to save time and hassel this room is wired horizontal. Trades that follow have to guess?

Anyhow the regs are flawed in many circumstances, the get out is good workmanship must be used at all times, which of course leads to arguments, as this thread.

 

[wattsup]

You didn't, sorry about that mate. Should have realised the whole point of this thread is you think it should be horizontal. You are correct and the foreman is wrong. Did he tell you why he thinks they should be vertical?

Hey ringer, take reading lessons....

 

[nickblake]

Take your ReG with you and ask him to show you the Reg then show him the Regs horizontal or vertical . in kitchens the less vertical drops the better due to wall cabinets

 

[telectrix]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought part p related only to domestic installs. a village hall is not domestic

 

[ian.settle1]

the site foreman is correct

This is where you said it had to be vertical in a previous post

 

[UNG]

As always good workmanship is the crux, and for that point, cables should be installed vertical whenever practical, because trades that follow know not to nail, drill directly vertical below or over any electrical point. It may be old school, but I also insist on the same on any of my jobs. ~If I'm in charge then thats what i want, no argument.

You see where do you draw the line, on a big site? ?Ok this room runs vertical, but to save time and hassel this room is wired horizontal. Trades that follow have to guess?

Anyhow the regs are flawed in many circumstances, the get out is good workmanship must be used at all times, which of course leads to arguments, as this thread.

I feel your arguement is flawed

If you have a cooker isolator or switched spur controlling an outlet that is not directly below it then using your method the only way is to go to the ceiling and back down to the outlet. It would seem that your installation methods are increasing costs unnecessarily for no good reason. While you may have a case for good workmanship if the installation was a surface one I don't see the point if it is flush

I don't know how old school you are but I have always installed cables and conduits horizontally and vertically as required to provide a functional cost effective installation for the last 35 years as the various editions of the regs have allowed me to. Unless it was previously agreed and priced accordingly I don't see any foreman can add extra requirements to suit himself

While the regs may be flawed it's what we have to work too and comply with or is it ok to deviate from the regs for the sake of good workmanship

Would you insist that the plumber only installed his pipes vertically I think not

 

[sarusystems]

correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought part p related only to domestic installs. a village hall is not domestic

yes this is true but it was on the spec

 

[sarusystems]

7th edition?? - wasn't that around the late 19th Century, when bell wire was OK for Ring Mains? Sorry only kidding.

I have nothing to add to the regulation side, apart from I believe the Horizontal is correct - however who is accurate and who isnt is probably a moot point in this (although in my view you are - right that is). Just a few observations:

a) what were you actually contracted to do - if it was to deliver to 17th edition BR and nothing specific was mentioned - would say you are ok, and you can argue this point. This could take a number of forms
b) Telling him that directly - quoting BR - actually flashing it in his face - preferably done when his subordinates are around to infuriate him further. (although it does have a satisfactory feeling)
c) Maybe going above his head to the Commissioner and suggesting his route with chasing and vertical cables would increase the costs significantly and that as you are getting a fixed rate for this (guessing this) - and that they are actually changing the terms of the contract from a) above - to being specific in how they want it down - rather than to the most cost effective method under the 17th ed BR - is a change in contract and you will have to adjust your costs accordingly.
d) Doyou want to do more work for this "Foreman" or not. Would guess if you argue point a) directly with him by doing b) or c) and win (or lose the argument) that he will black list you in some way from any other local community/council building work - whether legitamately or by just badmouthing you to people who count. Also Commisioners dont like hassle - beaurocrats rarely do - spanners in the works and all that.

jobsworths like this like to be told "Yes Sir, No Sir, Vertical cables it is sir". It comes down to whether your principles for being right and using the correct method that is most cost effective outweigh the value of current and future work from this source.

I would love to hear the story of b - if you get to it - But would suggest sometimes being right doesnt always put bread on the table - who ever said being self employed meant not having to take **** from bosses anymore!

Again only my thoughts on potential outcomes of pushing the point. Hope this helps.

I was employed not by the building company who employ the forman but by the village hall commitee
as the building company quote was some £10,000 pounds more than mine
there are to be wall cupbords but thease may be installed by local residents- hall users who dont know zones from adam
thanks for your input

 

[wattsup]

10 grand more, for a village hall? Well thats the reason the forman has the dolls on....vertical / horizontal, I will aft to differ on that argument. My jobs are all vertical, no leeway. If you guys like to zig-zag all over the place who am I to say you are wrong

 

[wattsup]

'While you may have a case for good workmanship if the installation was a surface one I don't see the point if it is flush'

Do you mean wiring burried in plaster? I don't understand your point, If it were surface you would see it?

Why would you go to ceiling height and back down for a cooker outlet?

 

[UNG]

'While you may have a case for good workmanship if the installation was a surface one I don't see the point if it is flush'

Do you mean wiring burried in plaster? I don't understand your point, If it were surface you would see it?

How else would you do a flush installation, I don't see any problems whether cables are installed horizontally or vertically all it requires is liason with other trades to ensure that the fitting of the fixtures and fittings does not compromise either installation

Surface wiring requires some thought so it does not look badly planned or thought out

Why would you go to ceiling height and back down for a cooker outlet?

You made the case on your jobs the cables must run vertical in walls it would be dangerous to have the cooker isolator directly above the cooker outlet which is normally behind the cooker so how would you do it without running horizontally on a wall