NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC renewal assessment debacle!

[spud1]

Hi All,

I recently had my NICEIC renewal assessment.
We are a two man band. We only carry out small local work and we are approved contractors & domestic installers.

We have always (for the last 17 years at least!) had a half day assessment from the NICEIC.
The freelance assessor they sent this year spent 3 Hours in my office!
He spent most of that tip tapping his tiny tablet -populating his report and counting the number of certificates on our Easycert software (Why?)
Very little constructive chat, no interest in seeing sites or assessing me as a QS.
After 3 hours (not quite half a day...?) he announced he was off to another assessment and would look at our sites etc. in a second additional half day assessment.

After he left, I discovered that this additional half day would cost £415.00 !! (only £130.00+VAT shy of the entire annual membership!)

Having read his interim report since, he blames the absence of a detailed list of electrical work for his time in the office.
Although the Easycert 'open certificates' screen shows all work carried out, together with address/cert number/cert type/dates, what more can he need? I even offered to print off or email him this list and/or our own in house works checklists off for him. He declined.

I have contacted him directly initially to ask for justification. He said rather abruptly "ring customer services if you have a complaint".
I also asked him to reply to a follow up email I sent him, he said he doesn't have time to reply to emails....

Aside from all that, this guy was not at all personable. He was awkward, overly formal did not communicate his assessment to me very well at all.
He is renowned with contractors in my local area for being like this and imposing second half day assessments.
My assumption is that, being freelance, he gets paid per assessment so... well, I'll let you fill in the spaces.
He asked me to name and shame other contractors poor work that I had followed and also told me a story about a contractor that started to argue with him once and that "he was lucky he didn't try anything because I am martial arts trained".... Very unprofessional and slightly intimidating.

I contacted customer services they answered and promised a call back but Ive had nothing back (This is since Weds last week)
I even resorted to emailing someone higher up but still havent had a reply from anyone.

What can I do? I feel like my company is in limbo now and I am really worried.
We are just about getting by as a company, we have plenty of work, but times are still hard, as they are for most of us.
We can't afford this second assessment and we have a pretty good reputation locally which I'm worried this guy is going to damage.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Intoelectrics]

What a t***er, obviously gets off on applying his "authority" and at the same time finding any excuse to rob you of your hard earned cash!

I don't know what you can do other than keep on to customer services. Its a pain I know but I doubt you will get anywhere unless you persist. Basically try making as much of a nuisance of your self as you can, this strategy often works, even if you just get a "we will offer you something to get off our case" sort of reply.

This is a prime example of some of the corruption and "real" agenda often found behind these scams.
I was lucky for the majority of my membership that my assessor was a regular who was an actual time served spark, who knew his stuff and also appreciated the difficulties faced for small outfits like yours.

I actually left the NICEIC when a new assessor came and I had similar experiences. We ended up arguing over an earth rod result in a TT system where he stated I was non compliant even though I demonstrated that according to the regs and the onsite guide that my readings where satisfactory. He went on to state that the readings weren't to his liking and since he was the assessor his opinion counted not mine, so he marked me down as non compliant and stated I would require another assessment (at a cost to me) once the readings were rectified. I kept on to customer services made loads of complaints and just kept pestering until they finally agreed my position and overturned the assessors ruling. The following year I cancelled my membership.

 

[DPG]

There's good and bad in every trade. The guy is obviously very unprofessional.

 

[Simon47]

I suppose what you do next depends on your appetite for action - and possibly whether you would be concerned if the scam "decided not to renew your membership".
But I suspect that if you make a big enough fuss, making it really public in a manner that's likely to cause the scam to lose reputation in the general public, and making sure the top brass see it - then you stand a good chance of them offering "an accommodation". So if you are up for it, start making a really big noise in public about how sh*t the scheme is, how they employ carp assessors to fleece the members, and how it's really nothing about public safety and standard but about fleecing as much in membership fees as they can from the trade.
But first, I would try finding the name of the top boss - CEO or whatever his title is - and write (snail mail) to him. Mark it "private and confidential" and send it recorded delivery. Give him (say) 14 days to get back to you with an offer of a way forward from this absurd and fraudulent assessment before you go public with it. The recorded deivery means you can prove it was delivered, and the "private and confidential" means that it should only be opened by him (or his direct assistants). I've found that often the guys at the top are oblivious to the sh*t the middle layer as chucking about - recently where I wrote a letter for my wife (after she came back from the local branch "all worked up" and swearing no end) to send to the boss of a local building society, she got a very nice letter from him thanking her for taking the time to write.

 

[spud1]

What a t***er, obviously gets off on applying his "authority" and at the same time finding any excuse to rob you of your hard earned cash!

I don't know what you can do other than keep on to customer services. Its a pain I know but I doubt you will get anywhere unless you persist. Basically try making as much of a nuisance of your self as you can, this strategy often works, even if you just get a "we will offer you something to get off our case" sort of reply.

This is a prime example of some of the corruption and "real" agenda often found behind these scams.
I was lucky for the majority of my membership that my assessor was a regular who was an actual time served spark, who knew his stuff and also appreciated the difficulties faced for small outfits like yours.

I actually left the NICEIC when a new assessor came and I had similar experiences. We ended up arguing over an earth rod result in a TT system where he stated I was non compliant even though I demonstrated that according to the regs and the onsite guide that my readings where satisfactory. He went on to state that the readings weren't to his liking and since he was the assessor his opinion counted not mine, so he marked me down as non compliant and stated I would require another assessment (at a cost to me) once the readings were rectified. I kept on to customer services made loads of complaints and just kept pestering until they finally agreed my position and overturned the assessors ruling. The following year I cancelled my membership.

Thanks for the reply!

Its reassuring that Im not the only person to have experienced this sort of bullying culture, but equally worrying that its not an isolated case!

The NICEIC just don't seem to have a robust and effective customer complaints process in place for their contractors.
When I searched the internet for 'NICEIC complaints' and the like, to find a dedicated email address that I could send my concerns to, all I could find was loads of results enabling the public to complain about us to the NICEIC!

If you don't mind me asking, did you move to a different scheme provider in the end? If so how are you finding them?

 

[spud1]

I suppose what you do next depends on your appetite for action - and possibly whether you would be concerned if the scam "decided not to renew your membership".
But I suspect that if you make a big enough fuss, making it really public in a manner that's likely to cause the scam to lose reputation in the general public, and making sure the top brass see it - then you stand a good chance of them offering "an accommodation". So if you are up for it, start making a really big noise in public about how sh*t the scheme is, how they employ carp assessors to fleece the members, and how it's really nothing about public safety and standard but about fleecing as much in membership fees as they can from the trade.
But first, I would try finding the name of the top boss - CEO or whatever his title is - and write (snail mail) to him. Mark it "private and confidential" and send it recorded delivery. Give him (say) 14 days to get back to you with an offer of a way forward from this absurd and fraudulent assessment before you go public with it. The recorded deivery means you can prove it was delivered, and the "private and confidential" means that it should only be opened by him (or his direct assistants). I've found that often the guys at the top are oblivious to the sh*t the middle layer as chucking about - recently where I wrote a letter for my wife (after she came back from the local branch "all worked up" and swearing no end) to send to the boss of a local building society, she got a very nice letter from him thanking her for taking the time to write.

Thanks for your advice Simon.

I have written to this guys bosses boss who is part of the 'Leadership Team' at the NICEIC but I don't expect I'll get a response.
Good idea regarding the recorded delivery letters. Written letters do tend to pack more of a punch than an email.

I think there needs to be serious reform in the way the NICEIC conduct their business and oversee their contractors.
The assessment process hasn't changed in over 20 years!
In this digital age most of the evidence they require can be confirmed digitally outside of the assessment.
The laborious report form that they fill out during the assessment need not be done during the assessment, this should be completed of the assessment too.

I must admit I do resent the idea that my annual membership fee and the already very limited one to one time it buys me with my area engineer, should be wasted by time spent populating forms and checking the presence documents on a PC, when this time could be so much better used, sample testing and inspecting an installation on site, and engaging in more fruitful technical and industry dialogue!

 

[sparksfly]

Unfortunately it seems that there is no Electrical umbrella to oversee NIC...EIC , NAAA...PIT et all.
Question - Do you really need the NIC right now ? If the majority of jobs you carry out does not involve registering Part P etc then have a break from them..... see how you go, have some space. You are right to complain, you are paying their wages after all.

 

[UNG]

Unfortunately it seems that there is no Electrical umbrella to oversee NIC...EIC , NAAA...PIT et all.
Question - Do you really need the NIC right now ? If the majority of jobs you carry out does not involve registering Part P etc then have a break from them..... see how you go, have some space. You are right to complain, you are paying their wages after all.

Try UKAS the NICEIC are one of their accredited organisations

 

[spud1]

Unfortunately it seems that there is no Electrical umbrella to oversee NIC...EIC , NAAA...PIT et all.
Question - Do you really need the NIC right now ? If the majority of jobs you carry out does not involve registering Part P etc then have a break from them..... see how you go, have some space. You are right to complain, you are paying their wages after all.

We do carry out a fair amount of Part P scope works, so we do need an accreditation really yes.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Go public on twitter and even write to your local paper they love a sad face article...
I have been fortunate to have had a really good assessor the last few years, top bloke and sensible. seems he is a rarity.
If needed name the assessor as he will hate that, the niceic will hate the name being banded about and when he monas to his bosses they will then ask why...
Of course a better idea if they havent yet taken payment by direct debit is to cancel it, when accounts phone asking why they will soon get the decision makers involved and tell them once this is sorted you will reinstate direct debit. they will bend over backwards for your money.
My assessor told me that once deemed competent by the NICEIC on assessment the UKAS rules actually state they cant then deem you incompetent so it is actually very very difficult to kick somebody out the NICEIC. all they can do is further assessment visits. to deem you incompetent has a very high threshold as its open to legal challenge, hence why its literally unheard of for somebody to get kicked out the NICEIC.

If you wanted to switch to NAPIT its a very easy process and they will be glad to help you if you give them a call.

 

[spud1]

Go public on twitter and even write to your local paper they love a sad face article...
I have been fortunate to have had a really good assessor the last few years, top bloke and sensible. seems he is a rarity.
If needed name the assessor as he will hate that, the niceic will hate the name being banded about and when he monas to his bosses they will then ask why...
Of course a better idea if they havent yet taken payment by direct debit is to cancel it, when accounts phone asking why they will soon get the decision makers involved and tell them once this is sorted you will reinstate direct debit. they will bend over backwards for your money.
My assessor told me that once deemed competent by the NICEIC on assessment the UKAS rules actually state they cant then deem you incompetent so it is actually very very difficult to kick somebody out the NICEIC. all they can do is further assessment visits. to deem you incompetent has a very high threshold as its open to legal challenge, hence why its literally unheard of for somebody to get kicked out the NICEIC.

If you wanted to switch to NAPIT its a very easy process and they will be glad to help you if you give them a call.

I've looked into NAPIT. It seems to me to be just more of the same with less notoriety and slightly less for your money. Part of me thinks better the devil you know but I'm not going to conned out of £415.00. What to do!
I'm not on twitter believe it or not. Nor Facebook nor any other. Too busy on electricians forums for all that!

 

[UNG]

I've looked into NAPIT. It seems to me to be just more of the same with less notoriety and slightly less for your money. Part of me thinks better the devil you know but I'm not going to conned out of £415.00. What to do!
I'm not on twitter believe it or not. Nor Facebook nor any other. Too busy on electricians forums for all that!

Not sure what you actually mean by your statement, yes the NICEIC seems to have a higher profile as to whether you get less for your money with NAPIT because they have a lower profile will no doubt be open to debate one thing is clear that both organisations have some rogue contractors as members as can regularly be seen in some of the posts on here.
The one thing that can be said for both is that they have a love of other peoples money

 

[sparksfly]

Try UKAS the NICEIC are one of their accredited organisations

If you have the money and procedures in place it seems anyone can be UKAS accredited. There is no umbrella as such overseeing these schemes/organisations from an electrical industry perspective. Anyone can have a complaints procedure but it can go nowhere.
I may write all of the electrical schemes/organisations on an umbrella, over my head in a thunderstorm, while wearing green tights, holding onto "little John" (earth rod) and see, after a strike, what all the letters scattered on the ground amount to.....
If I survive, it may spell out a new scheme or a brilliant David Bowie posthumous lyric.

 

[swaRRR]

When he gets home at night his fat and psychopathic wife thrashes him within inches of his life

 

[Doogsparky]

The NICEIC extra half day assessment is a scam to effectively almost double the annual membership fee without openly doing it officially.
The “full day” assessment never lasts a day usually just half a day.
The justification for the extra half day used to be, if there was a major non conformance found on the previous assessment then a full day assessment was warranted the following year, having been an AC for 14 years now and no adverse comments on the assessment form of any kind for several years now, We‘re still billed for an extra half day, I query it every year and every year get fobbed off by customer services.
The latest conversation was when we asked the reason for a full day, the response was an AC requires a full day assessment for the scope of the scheme, when we asked why this isn’t reflected in the annual membership fee of £1000 which it basically is now instead of the £600 annual membership fee before the additional £414.00 half day, the response was err but some AC‘s don’t require a full day, a complete and immediate contradiction! NAPIT I believe advertise (or used to) that they don’t charge for an additional half day on assessments which is one reason why I believe NICEIC don’t openly state the real costs as most hard working electricians would vote with their feet and not support getting screwed every year.