No Certificate For New Electrics And Local Authority Demands

[Guitarist]

In which case, do they have a leg to stand on in terms of forcing us to use their own sub-contractors and charging a ridiculous amount for the 'privilege'?

And when you say "that person who certifies it", are you referring to issuing a Part P cert or something along the lines of an EICR?

There is no such thing as a "part P cert". When we carry out notifiable work, we log it with our scheme provider, and the scheme provider notifies LBC and sends the homeowner a certificate. The electrician does not issue any kind of certificate himself, just test results.

 

[ruston]

No if you have paid the notification fee it is down to them , it's in the document if you have another look.

 

[TMess]

Building control have to foot the bill not the section 1.26 of part P says this. but for some reason when you download this its blank just in that section ? look on line at this link
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

page 11
bottom right

Hmmm, 1.26 of Part P which includes the 2010 amendment (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/AD_P_wm.pdf) states otherwise:

"The building control body may choose to carry out the inspection and testing itself, or to contract out some or all of the work to a specialist body to carry out the work on its behalf. Where the building control body is a local authority it cannot require the building owner to undertake this work. However, under the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010, the authority may charge a higher building control charge when first notified the work or levy a supplementary charge later, based on the recovery of its costs."

 

[morph]

No if you have paid the notification fee it is down to them , it's in the document if you have another look.

only if the electrical work was listed in the job description

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Having spoken to Building Control, they will only accept having the work 'tested' by their own sub-contractor and want a fee of £380 for this 'regularisation' work. We queried whether our newly found electrician can undertake the same 'tests' that their sub-contractor would and obviously at a much more sensible price. Their response was a firm 'no'.

Do we have any options available to us other than pay Building Control this extortionate fee? Surely they can't get away with charging such disproportionate amounts for work that any other competent person could do at the correct market price?

The term 'regularisation' work is used by many LABCs for notifying the work after it has been carried out.
Under Part P there are three methods for notification.
One is to pre-notify the work and pay the appropriate fee, the LABC will usually inspect the work once or maybe twice, and as long as the work is satisfactory, issue a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.
In many cases the LABC will waive the inspections if they are happy that the tradesman is suitably qualified, and that the tradesman will issue an EIC/MEWIC upon completion.
The preferred method is to employ a tradesman who is registered with a Self Certification or Competent Persons scheme. The tradesman will then issue the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.
The third and most expensive method is to notify retrospectively. The LABC will usually arrange for an Inspector to conduct an inspection and issue an EICR. The LABC then if the report is acceptable issue the Building Regulations Compliance Certificate.

Although the additions listed are not notifiable under Part P, it appears that either a planning application was made, or some form of notification was made to the LABC for the whole extension.
If the wiring additions were included in either a planning application, or LABC notification, then the LABC would apply the same criteria as if the work was notifiable under Part P.
As such if inspections have been waived and an EIC/MEWIC is expected and you are unable to produce one, the LABC will treat this as a retrospective notification, and will charge the fee accordingly.
It is not just the EICR that you wil be paying the LABC for, but also for regularising the retrospective notification.

You could argue extenuating circumstances, and that the electrical work is not notifiable under Part P, but you are still left with work that does not have an EIC/MEWIC and as such does not comply with the Electrical Regulations.
You will have to convince the LABC that the work is not notifiable, and without an EIC/MEWIC, that is going to be very hard to do.
Do the initial plans indicate that the existing circuits are to be extended rather than new circuits installed?

 

[TMess]

You could argue extenuating circumstances, and that the electrical work is not notifiable under Part P, but you are still left with work that does not have an EIC/MEWIC and as such does not comply with the Electrical Regulations.
You will have to convince the LABC that the work is not notifiable, and without an EIC/MEWIC, that is going to be very hard to do.
Do the initial plans indicate that the existing circuits are to be extended rather than new circuits installed?

What is the difference between an EIC/MEWIC and an EICR? It is my understanding that anyone can issue an EICR for work after it has been completed by someone else.

The conversion did not require any plans and thus there was not mention of any electrical work. I would imagine it should be obvious that any garage conversion will require at least some electrical work anyway.

 

[SYKRAPS]

Hi,

Why don't you start a complaint procedure with the NICEIC regarding the sparky that you used stating that no certification has been provided and you doubt the integrity of the work that has been carried out because you can't get a certificate from him for the work he has done?

It is my understanding that if we as NICEIC registered electricians do not comply with regulations (to which certification is included) then the NICEIC will get involved and help rectify the situation, as they at the NICEIC are there to protect the consumer first and foremost.

I will have to check to be 100% sure but I think that it is in the NICEIC's small print that if you (the customer) are not happy with work carried out by a registered electrician and the NICEIC agree then they will insist the electrician in question has to rectify any regulation irregularities at his own expense, and if the electrician will not comply then the NICEIC will instruct another approved electrician to rectify the shortcomings also at the original electricians expense 'or they may be striken off i think'.

Hope this helps.

Regards Nige.

PS The work as explained was not notifiable to LBC and only a minor works cert is required because there was no work in a special location nor any new circuits added

 

[Bradzz]

Sorry im looking at the wrong section will have another look.

 

[Des 56]

What a complicated catch 22 fiasco is this part p claptrap

Get yourself a registered spark.move the sockets a couple of inches,ditto the lighting alteration,have a minor works certificate and hand it over

 

[morph]

this spark could argue the work is not finnished and he does not intend to finish because x,y,z and therefore i would expect it is hard to pin him down, also he may have won the lottery and not give a stuff

 

[TMess]

Thanks Nige. The NICEIC did summarise their complaint procedure to us this afternoon. Basically we need to write a letter to the spark, wait 7 days, then if we do not hear from him, formerly complain to them (the NICEIC), and they will then attempt at finding a solution. However, that currently seems more long winded than figuring out whether LABC need a cert in the first place, and if so, whether they can charge so much.

 

[Bradzz]

TMess WHO ARE YOU?

 

[SYKRAPS]

TMess,

The way I see it is that LBC want a certificate to cover work done in the worked on areas not a Part P certificate. If you got another sparky to adjust and test all of the newly installed electrical outlets and issue a minor works certificate this would suffice.

To answer an earlier question you asked a Minor Works Cert covers basically alterations and additions to existing circuits, an Electrical Installation Cert covers newly installed completely new circuits and an EICR is carried out on an installation to test its integrity and is for information about an installation and its state of repair which may result in either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory result.

Regards Nige.

 

[Bradzz]

could this be the section i was trying to show you TMess but when i looked back at it for some reason it changed, but i had a photo of it.

 

[TMess]

TMess,

The way I see it is that LBC want a certificate to cover work done in the worked on areas not a Part P certificate. If you got another sparky to adjust and test all of the newly installed electrical outlets and issue a minor works certificate this would suffice.

To answer an earlier question you asked a Minor Works Cert covers basically alterations and additions to existing circuits, an Electrical Installation Cert covers newly installed completely new circuits and an EICR is carried out on an installation to test its integrity and is for information about an installation and its state of repair which may result in either a satisfactory or unsatisfactory result.

Regards Nige.

Does a Minor Works Cert (MEWIC?) or an EIC get registered with the NICEIC who would then forward the registration to the LABC? Or is it merely a certificate with test results that gets written out by the installer and handed over? The LABC have stated a number of times that they check for work certificates 'online'.

 

[TMess]

View attachment 14568could this be the section i was trying to show you TMess but when i looked back at it for some reason it changed, but i had a photo of it.

Have a look at my reply with the updated Part P document on the previous page of this thread. You linked to the older Part P (before the 2010 amendments) which has different wording within paragraph 1.26 than the newer edition.

 

[Bradzz]

for some reason this is what is showing for the 2010 update, oh well.

 

[SYKRAPS]

Most Part P certificates are filed on-line but as for all other certification it comes direct from the installer and you don't have to be registered with bodies such as NICEIC to provide it, you can simply use photocopies of certificate examples from BS7671 aslong as you have a code and number system.

The certificate should be issued directly to the person who ordered the work to be done from the electricians carrying out te work.

 

[Bradzz]

The other thing is dont worry as the job is not complete yet so no certs need to go to LBC, why say you, well the job is not complete due to the fact the sparks has not yet issued you with the certificate, or the body to whom he is registerd with. and he has not said he is holding the cert back for any reasons has he. tell building control to go and do one.

 

[Swicade]

A bit of a work around the situation (some may say it's abit dodgey) but it may be possible to do as follows:

IF building control/LABC have no record at all of who did the original install (the guy who's done a runner) then if your new sparks is willing to test/inspect/sign off the install issueing a minor works certificate which you can then send a copy to LABC then alls good and LABC will be none the wiser.

Technicaly it's not the right thing to do as the installer should be the only one issueing the cert for the work (so i'm not in anyway suggesting this should become common practice) but circumstances have you abit screwed. Aslong as LABC dont know who the original sparks is then as far as they're concerned the new sparks IS the original sparks.If the new sparks is Part P and can certificate online then even better.

It's not right,it's not clever....but it is a work around the situation so you can get the job signed off by LABC (as i gather this is the main problem).....would however be interesting to know what actualy happens (if anything) with NIC*spits*EIC and if they do actualy chase the scarlet pumpernickel of a sparks done and give him a slapped wrist.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Three theads all on the same subject?
All could have been rolled in to one.

Aye ..... but it should keep Dan happy

 

[richy3333]

Yes. A call to NICEIC this afternoon confirmed he is 'still' registered.

If he is with the NICEIC then make an official complaint. That's partly why they exist and charge huge fees

 

[StuSpiers]

Just to throw this in the mix:

My own policy is to not issue certs until full payment has been received I also get all part-p certs sent to my address and send them on with any certs.

Did your sparky mention anything about that?

Regards.

 

[morph]

Just to throw this in the mix:

My own policy is to not issue certs until full payment has been received I also get all part-p certs sent to my address and send them on with any certs.

Did your sparky mention anything about that?

Regards.

ditto , always two sides to a story

 

[Octopus]

Question to T Mess:

Did the homeowners original planning consent include the electrics?
Did the sparky give the home owner any certifcates?

Sorry if I've missed these facts but the thread is long winded.

 

[Engineer54]

If he is with the NICEIC then make an official complaint. That's partly why they exist and charge huge fees

Oh dear, .....I think your going to be sadly disappointed if you really believe that any of these scheme providers, are going to do anything to help others. Be it it's members, or the members customers.... Now on the other hand, if an electrician is using the schemes logo illegally, ...then you will see some pronto action, but allas not on the customers behalf!! lol!!!

 

[telectrix]

think this whole thread is like the pics of that duchess whatever her title is, topless. making mountains out of molehills. get a local registered spark in th add an extra socket and give you a minor works cert. end of.

 

[TMess]

The other thing is dont worry as the job is not complete yet so no certs need to go to LBC, why say you, well the job is not complete due to the fact the sparks has not yet issued you with the certificate, or the body to whom he is registerd with. and he has not said he is holding the cert back for any reasons has he. tell building control to go and do one.

I don't follow. If LABC don't receive a certificate, then the entire job will not be signed off by them, which will result in one very unhappy customer and leaves our reputation on the line...

 

[TMess]

Just to throw this in the mix:

My own policy is to not issue certs until full payment has been received I also get all part-p certs sent to my address and send them on with any certs.

Did your sparky mention anything about that?

Regards.

He did not mention anything along these lines. On top of which we did agree payment post certification.

 

[TMess]

Question to T Mess:

Did the homeowners original planning consent include the electrics?
Did the sparky give the home owner any certifcates?

Sorry if I've missed these facts but the thread is long winded.

There was no original planning application, but a building control application which merely stated 'garage conversion'. Logic would state that any garage conversion would include an element of electrical work.
The homeowner has not received any certificates. They would have come to us first.

 

[TMess]

Quite a few of you have mentioned getting a minor works certificate. However, Building Control have always asked for a Part P certificate. Where do we legally stand in terms of refusing to give them a Part P certificate (because we can't in our current situation) and offering them a minor works certificate instead? What is the difference between the two certificates in the first place?

 

[tony mc]

The electrician will issue a either a Minor works which what yours is or a Electrical Instalation Certificate.

There is no such thing as a part P certificate.

As already stated if the work is notifiable then the elctricans scheme in your case the NICEIC will inform the LABC that the work has beed done as per the part P building regs !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would imagine that when they ask for a 'Part P' certificate, they are actually asking for a Building Regulations compliance Certificate.

 

[Guest55]

I don't follow. If LABC don't receive a certificate, then the entire job will not be signed off by them, which will result in one very unhappy customer and leaves our reputation on the line...

then just pay the damn fee if your customers satisfaction and company reputation is worth more than £400.
sometimes the path of least resistance is best if you dont want to tie up endless hours of hassle sorting this out.
then you can move on and learn for the next time you have to deal with the part p process.

 

[ruston]

A "part certificate " does not really exist. if you employ a part p registered electrician he is allowed to self certify his work to building control within 30 days of completion of the works. Building control will then sign the work off and issue the customer with a completion certificate. The spark does not need to send an EIc to building control as that goes to the person ordering the work.

The other route is to notify BC twenty four hours before work commences and pay a notification fee. BC may then decide to take copy of the certificate from a competent person or oversee the work themselves .ie first and second fix inspections. then on completion you will get a compliance certificate. This is not conclusive and the terminology may be incorrect because I'm tired lol.

It's taken so long to get this up on 3 you lot have said it all.

 

[Guitarist]

then just pay the damn fee if your customers satisfaction and company reputation is worth more than £400.
sometimes the path of least resistance is best if you dont want to tie up endless hours of hassle sorting this out.
then you can move on and learn for the next time you have to deal with the part p process.

Agree with you biff. I have already said that not having to pay the electrician should cover this, and many of us have explained that there is no such thing as a "part P certificate" issued by the sparky, even if the work is notifiable.
I can't believe this thread is still going....