No CPC in lighting circuits / Fire damage

[Andy434]

Good evening

following a visual inspection in a property that had an electrical fire in the fuse board area
obviously i could not actually test anything, but visually identified that the lighting circuits had no earth (not even cut back)
now the insurance company ideally want a new distribution board and all the circuits being cut back to where they are not damaged then extended back and re-connected

so my question is:
all the pendents and switches are plastic, but really don't think i can join on to and extend the old cable that contains no cpc

or am i wrong?

am i right in thinking they have no choice but to get the lighting re-wired

thanks guys

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Aha, gotcha there. I’ve freely always stated, never did EICR’s as having returned to the industry in the last few years, I didn’t have the necessary experience IMO, as it’s so subjective.

But I do have experience in reading and absorbing regulations & laws etc.

Anyway, why should I answer your question before you answer mine. I sense a trap.

Because I asked first, twice actually. You're dead right it's a trap, why do you think no one else has answered?

 

[bigspark17]

I think the confusion exists because some are taking bs7671 as installing a new circuit without a cpc, that is not the case, the circuit is existing during a consumer unit upgrade, therefore ensuring there are no class I accessories along with other points made confirms the circuit is suitable safe for “reconnection”

 

[westward10]

Problem with an EICR you are basing an opinion on what you can see, which is fine in some circumstances. In this scenario you say all fittings are Class II or all insulated which is again fine if you are 100% sure you have accessed all parts of the circuit.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

That's true Westward, but there are a number of different faults that could go undetected if you weren't thorough, regardless of whether a CPC is present or not. The guidance recommends carrying out an EICR in preparation for a board change

 

[Pete999]

That's true Westward, but there are a number of different faults that could go undetected if you weren't thorough, regardless of whether a CPC is present or not. The guidance recommends carrying out an EICR in preparation for a board change

Recommends, being the operative word.

 

[ferg]

Faced with conflicting information and guidance you have a choice between taking the job or insisting on rewiring with the possibility of losing it and future work.
Ultimately the decision is yours.
Like everything in life it comes down to risk Vs reward.

 

[Midwest]

PS @Pretty Mouth have you ever installed a new CU in such circumstances?

You answer mine, I'll answer yours

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated/class2 fittings what would you code it?

C1 immediate danger?
C2 Potential danger?
C3 Improvement recommended?

Based on that, would you give a unsatisfactory or satisfactory outcome?

So, as I’m unqualified to answer, I’ve answered yours, so can you answer mine?

 

[Pretty Mouth]

So, as I’m unqualified to answer, I’ve answered yours, so can you answer mine?

It would be a pleasure

Before I answer, I might point out that it may be perceived by some that you asking this is a low, dirty tactic, designed to both pull rank, and expose inexperience in your opponent. Typically deployed by someone who is already on the ropes in an argument, it's a last ditch attempt to save face before they flounce off in a huff. The danger with using this tactic, is once the opponent's inexperience is exposed, it highlights the attacker's own short comings should he/she fail to win the argument.

As you are an esteemed member of the forum I will assume that this is not the case, and that you are merely curious.

I have never changed a board to an installation with missing CPCs on lighting circuits, in fact I have only done one board change, and that was more than a year ago. I don't do EICRs either, unless you count the one I did before the board change. I have just 3 short weeks training, about 2.5 years ago, and consider myself mainly self taught. I am not on a competent person scheme, and use a 3rd party certifier for any notifiables. The bulk of my electrical work is minor stuff, extra lighting, sockets and so on, the odd bathroom or kitchen, plus some fault finding. I still do general handyman work as well, boarding lofts, repointing and so on, as I don't yet have enough regular electrical work to live off.

So a relative newcomer to the industry I'm sure we would all agree. I hope that answers your question, plus a bit more, just in case you were curious.

Now, what about my questions. No need to be qualified to do EICRs Midwest, just competent, so I hear. I'll give you a clue. You can find the answer to the coding question on P15 of the Best Practice Guide 4:

https://www.----------------------------/media/2149/bpg4-1.pdf

 

[Midwest]

Of course I'm just curious, anything else would be just trolling and against forum rules.

I've done quite a few CU replacements, but none with lighting circuits without a cpc. I did start to do a bathroom refurbishment once, where I discovered that the cpc for the bathroom light was actually a green single, clamped to a water pipe in the loft. So it went from down lighting, vanity mirrors etc, to just replacing the bathroom light with Class 2 fitting. I advised the customer to consider having a re-wire, something I wouldn't take on. The property was rewired some time later. I have come across other installs, but declined the work, as the customer was ill-inclined to have remedial work carried out to rectify. So I left that to others.

I was just wondering, about replacing a CU where the existing wiring is over 60 years old. Not something I would of considered doing, but thats my opinion.

As regards doing EICR's, when I retrained I did the initial testing & inspection course, as my skills were somewhat ancient. My Scheme suggested I could do EICR's with that course, but I wasn't sure how any insurance claim would go, if it were to happen, without a 2395 or equivalent. Then there's the additional indemnity insurance. It just didn't make business sense for me.

PS I guessed right. Guess I'm good at quizzes

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Good at quizzes huh? Well I've got one you'll like:

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated... ah forget it. You're obviously not going to answer, none of you, because you know if you do it'll be impossible for you to argue your case any longer.

I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.

 

[Midwest]

I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.

It all depends on who you speak to;

FAQ: Electrical cables' life expectancy | Eland Cables

Answering the frequently asked question: what is the life expectancy of an electrical cable. There are many different environmental and operational conditions which are likely to influence the longevity of electrical cables in service.

www.elandcables.com

How long do Prysmian cables last?

How long do Prysmian cables last?

www.whyprysmian.co.uk

Q & A of the Day - What is the lifespan of twin and earth cables?

Our Voltimum Experts answer your questions on a daily basis in our Technical Expertise area. This first Question of the Day, on MV and LV cables & accessories - how long is the lifespan of twin and earth cable, is answered by BASEC:

www.voltimum.co.uk

Everything has a life span. I've said many times on this forum, that if I was refurbishing an old house, I would have it rewired come what may regardless of the test results, same as I would have the CH pipes etc replaced. But thats just my personal opinion, as I said before.

 

[Ian1981]

Good at quizzes huh? Well I've got one you'll like:

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated... ah forget it. You're obviously not going to answer, none of you, because you know if you do it'll be impossible for you to argue your case any longer.

I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.

Personally I’d C3 it for absence of a cpc in an all insulated lighting circuit, warning label attached to the CU

 

[Pretty Mouth]

24 hours a day running at 70deg will last 25 years according to your Prysmian link, in excess of 40 years at 8hrs a day. I wonder how often correctly installed T+E reaches 70deg in a domestic environment, even for a moment?

I worked on some on Friday. A bungalow, about 1968, imperial twin and earth. Cut into it in the loft to spur to a socket in the porch. IR tested fine, as good as new.
[automerge]1579446318[/automerge]

Personally I’d C3 it for absence of a cpc in an all insulated lighting circuit, warning label attached to the CU

That's what the guidance says too, C3. The absence of any C1s or C2s (or FIs) for any other reason, would lead to a satisfactory outcome on the report. It would then be difficult for someone to argue that the circuits needed rewiring based on that outcome.

 

[Midwest]

I worked on some on Friday. A bungalow, about 1968, imperial twin and earth. Cut into it in the loft to spur to a socket in the porch. IR tested fine, as good as new.
[automerge]1579446318[/automerge]

That's what the guidance says too, C3. The absence of any C1s or C2s (or FIs) for any other reason, would lead to a satisfactory outcome on the report. It would then be difficult for someone to argue that the circuits needed rewiring based on that outcome.

Granted, I’ve worked on some properties from the 60’s where the installation is in the same excellent condition since it was installed.

But I’ve also worked in some properties half that age, which have been hacked to bits by DIY’s, and because of its nature, most the mess lies hidden under the floor. No amount of testing will reveal that.

Thats why, if was to move into an older property, along with the kitchen & bathroom refurbishment, it would get a rewire. No point in fancy refurbishment, without looking after the infrastructure.

But that’s my personal opinion.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Granted, I’ve worked on some properties from the 60’s where the installation is in the same excellent condition since it was installed.

But I’ve also worked in some properties half that age, which have been hacked to bits by DIY’s, and because of its nature, most the mess lies hidden under the floor. No amount of testing will reveal that.

Thats why, if was to move into an older property, along with the kitchen & bathroom refurbishment, it would get a rewire. No point in fancy refurbishment, without looking after the infrastructure.

But that’s my personal opinion.

I can't argue with that, you do see some bad work. Like you say, DIY, or kitchen fitters often too.