Nvq for cps membership.

[BruceBanner]

Evening all,
This may have been covered already but If so,I can't find the right thread, & apologise in advance.
I was a member of Napit until about 5 years ago, full scope, everything up to date, only thing not on paper was my nvq3/am2, but relevant long term industry experience across sectors gained me membership under "grandfather rights".
Was then with stroma for a year. Same scope from what I remember. During that period my membership lapsed due to family issues. Carried on subbing etc to earn, In the interim Stroma, also got swallowed up & ended by Napit. Now back to end of issues & going full time again. Now being told need nvq/am2 before my napit can go live(nic same), but if I'd renewed by 09/2021 would have been OK to carry on without it.
I'm not against gaining the qualification etc at all, but can't wait for the timescale they are talking about. Wouldn't mind but local nic/napit guys got back in without by deadline & I have always spent a lot of my time chasing after their mistakes. I have offered to get it all completed by next assessment, but been knocked back. I do understand new requirements etc, but it's a bit of a ---- take to say yes we took your money as qualified back then but you're not now! Any advise to truncate access to membership would be appreciated.

 

[BruceBanner]

Believe me,, its getting high on my options list. Bc notifications is my only issue? Any advice?

 

[SparkyChick]

Evening all,
This may have been covered already but If so,I can't find the right thread, & apologise in advance.
I was a member of Napit until about 5 years ago, full scope, everything up to date, only thing not on paper was my nvq3/am2, but relevant long term industry experience across sectors gained me membership under "grandfather rights".
Was then with stroma for a year. Same scope from what I remember. During that period my membership lapsed due to family issues. Carried on subbing etc to earn, In the interim Stroma, also got swallowed up & ended by Napit. Now back to end of issues & going full time again. Now being told need nvq/am2 before my napit can go live(nic same), but if I'd renewed by 09/2021 would have been OK to carry on without it.
I'm not against gaining the qualification etc at all, but can't wait for the timescale they are talking about. Wouldn't mind but local nic/napit guys got back in without by deadline & I have always spent a lot of my time chasing after their mistakes. I have offered to get it all completed by next assessment, but been knocked back. I do understand new requirements etc, but it's a bit of a ---- take to say yes we took your money as qualified back then but you're not now! Any advise to truncate access to membership would be appreciated.

The EAS document lists a mature candidate assessment as an option for demonstrating competence. That will obviously be based on prior experience... 5 years of membership should satisfy that. If they are stating you absolutely must have the AM2/NVQ, they are incorrect unless they are saying that NAPIT won't consider you previous membership as evidence of relevant prior experience.

If you've got your area engineers contact details handy, I'd be dropping them a quick mail and seeing what they have to say about it.

 

[BruceBanner]

The EAS document lists a mature candidate assessment as an option for demonstrating competence. That will obviously be based on prior experience... 5 years of membership should satisfy that. If they are stating you absolutely must have the AM2/NVQ, they are incorrect unless they are saying that NAPIT won't consider you previous membership as evidence of relevant prior experience.

If you've got your area engineers contact details handy, I'd be dropping them a quick mail and seeing what they have to say about it.

My previous assessor is longer with napit, I was with napit for a number of year's but then switched to stroma as less cost & same features (& to be honest a more thorough assessment). My membership lapsed with stroma in the period they got taken out by napit,, but surely your argument is made even greater,, I'm more up to date now than I was back with napit.

 

[SparkyChick]

Several people are saying they aren't on a scheme and when they go to notify building control, building control are not interested and in some cases even say they don't have the departmental manpower to even do it.

Obv this would depend on the county, but in my opinion if you're competent to do work, just do it and fob the schemes off. They're a racket and everyone knows it and if everyone flirted them off our lives would all be easier.

If you're serious about doing domestic work, being a member of a scheme is a must. You don't need to notify ahead of the works, you don't pay big fees to the council, you just rock up, do your thing and tell them after the fact for a nominal administrative charge. And the best thing... it's all above board and legal.

The building regulations are, unless I'm much mistaken, a statutory document... a document that puts the responsibility for complying on the owner of the property. So wilfully ignoring said document could be putting your clients in a position where they have unknowingly broken the law by failing to comply with the building regulations... nice!

I think we would all agree that there are issues with the current setup but it is what it is and if you want everything to be above board then being a member is the cheapest solution. The schemes themselves don't set the requirements, they are obliged to follow them. UKAS Have changed the EAS requirements, possibly to try and address the issue of short training courses who knows, but the schemes, and ultimately us, have to play ball if we want access to what they are providing.

 

[BruceBanner]

If you're serious about doing domestic work, being a member of a scheme is a must. You don't need to notify ahead of the works, you don't pay big fees to the council, you just rock up, do your thing and tell them after the fact for a nominal administrative charge. And the best thing... it's all above board and legal.

The building regulations are, unless I'm much mistaken, a statutory document... a document that puts the responsibility for complying on the owner of the property. So wilfully ignoring said document could be putting your clients in a position where they have unknowingly broken the law by failing to comply with the building regulations... nice!

I think we would all agree that there are issues with the current setup but it is what it is and if you want everything to be above board then being a member is the cheapest solution. The schemes themselves don't set the requirements, they are obliged to follow them. UKAS Have changed the EAS requirements, possibly to try and address the issue of short training courses who knows, but the schemes, and ultimately us, have to play ball if we want access to what they are providing.

I have no objections whatsoever to upskilling/quals etc. Its the time frame considering I was previously a member of not 1, but 2 qualiying bobies. The same one,, as you like now, are saying the previousbis irrelevant due to me missing a deadline, but they have other members who stayed on, with lower criteria met,, who stayed on,, & as yet no requirement to up skill at all.

 

[philectrical]

If you're serious about doing domestic work, being a member of a scheme is a must. You don't need to notify ahead of the works, you don't pay big fees to the council, you just rock up, do your thing and tell them after the fact for a nominal administrative charge. And the best thing... it's all above board and legal.

The building regulations are, unless I'm much mistaken, a statutory document... a document that puts the responsibility for complying on the owner of the property. So wilfully ignoring said document could be putting your clients in a position where they have unknowingly broken the law by failing to comply with the building regulations... nice!

I think we would all agree that there are issues with the current setup but it is what it is and if you want everything to be above board then being a member is the cheapest solution. The schemes themselves don't set the requirements, they are obliged to follow them. UKAS Have changed the EAS requirements, possibly to try and address the issue of short training courses who knows, but the schemes, and ultimately us, have to play ball if we want access to what they are providing.

I don't see it the same way.

Imagine a scenario where there are 100 electricians, all qualified and experienced, and suddenly some bunch of guys just come along and say 'Oh by the way, there's been this law change and if you don't join our gang for huge sums of money you will have to notify building control yourself. They won't care and likely don't even have a department who can enforce said laws but if you don't join our scheme you won't be 'above board' any longer even though the law says nothing about us being the official 'above board' certifiers'. The 95 mugs who joined the scheme when they should have told them where to go doesn't negate the fact that it's a totally unnecessary practice that says absolutely nothing about your legality, competence or knowledge, and the other 5 guys who rightfully said 'nah, you're alright, i don't think i'll join' aren't in the wrong or 'not above board' just because they didn't join the racket.

That's how i see it anyway.

If i do insurance work for a customer and bill them and it turns out they didn't have the correct insurance it's not my fault. If the customer has to comply with Part P the customer should be the one taking the responsibility. People being ignorant of the law doesn't mean it's right that the buck gets passed to the person carrying out the work imo.

And when it's all said and done - absolutely nobody cares. Building control don't care, when you come to sell the house nobody actually cares. It's only the schemes and people that think they're better than the unregistered spark who care.

When building control themselves are largely saying 'nah mate we don't care, because it was all a scam to get you to join a scheme and ultimately we're not bothered by any of it' why would you insist someone had to join a scheme? Makes no sense.

If someone is competent they shouldn't be prevented from carrying out good work just because they aren't eligible to jump through the hoops the rackets put in their way. 'Yes you could join our scam but you haven't done XYZ for the arbitrary time frame we decided so you can't.' Nonsense. All again just my opinion.

 

[SparkyChick]

@philectrical ,

"And when it's all said and done - absolutely nobody cares. Building control don't care, when you come to sell the house nobody actually cares. It's only the schemes and people that think they're better than the unregistered spark who care."

That is factually incorrect... some people do care, thus far in my experience it's solicitors acting on behalf of their clients. The frequency I get asked about EICRs for property exchanges and about what paperwork should have been received on the back of electrical work is increasing. I'm sure insurance companies would care too if it meant they could avoid paying out following an electrical fire.... oooh... wasn't notified to building control... non-compliant works I'm afraid Sir, we won't be paying out!

"And when it's all said and done - absolutely nobody cares. Building control don't care, when you come to sell the house nobody actually cares. It's only the schemes and people that think they're better than the unregistered spark who care."

If by that you're implying I think I'm better than all sparks who aren't registered with schemes then I would like to politely advise you that you have absolutely zero clue what I think so I'll enlighten you. Do I think I'm better than all the unregistered sparks out there? Hell no, to do so would be incredibly arrogant. Am I better than some of them? Absolutely. But I also understand that being a member of said schemes doesn't make me great, just like going the apprentice route doesn't automatically make you better than the spark who went the short course route. There's more to being a good spark than bits of paper and scheme membership, but right now... at this point in time... being a member of a scheme makes the domestic work life a breeze if you want to do the best job you can for your clients, which in my opinion includes making sure they are complying with the building regs by ensuring the work I do complies and then notifying on their behalf.

We're taking this thread somewhat off track... if you'd like to continue discussing it, create a thread.

 

[philectrical]

@philectrical ,

"And when it's all said and done - absolutely nobody cares. Building control don't care, when you come to sell the house nobody actually cares. It's only the schemes and people that think they're better than the unregistered spark who care."

That is factually incorrect... some people do care, thus far in my experience it's solicitors acting on behalf of their clients. The frequency I get asked about EICRs for property exchanges and about what paperwork should have been received on the back of electrical work is increasing. I'm sure insurance companies would care too if it meant they could avoid paying out following an electrical fire.... oooh... wasn't notified to building control... non-compliant works I'm afraid Sir, we won't be paying out!

EICR's aren't notifiable and can be done by anyone regardless of scheme membership. The two issues are separate. My old man did all his own electrics and when he came to sell a simple EICR was sufficient, no building control notice needed and the council didn't care.

"And when it's all said and done - absolutely nobody cares. Building control don't care, when you come to sell the house nobody actually cares. It's only the schemes and people that think they're better than the unregistered spark who care."

If by that you're implying I think I'm better than all sparks who aren't registered with schemes then I would like to politely advise you that you have absolutely zero clue what I think so I'll enlighten you. Do I think I'm better than all the unregistered sparks out there? Hell no, to do so would be incredibly arrogant. Am I better than some of them? Absolutely. But I also understand that being a member of said schemes doesn't make me great, just like going the apprentice route doesn't automatically make you better than the spark who went the short course route. There's more to being a good spark than bits of paper and scheme membership, but right now... at this point in time... being a member of a scheme makes the domestic work life a breeze if you want to do the best job you can for your clients, which in my opinion includes making sure they are complying with the building regs by ensuring the work I do complies and then notifying on their behalf.

You've taken personal offence to something i never said about you personally and have become defensive on the back of it.

At the end of the day the people who claim you need to be part of a scheme are those who have been duped into being in a scheme. The scheme doesn't change one iota of your knowledge or experience it's simply an exercise in red tape, and nobody will convince me it's necessary to practice as an electrician. At the end of the day it's down to the customer to do their due diligence on what they need from the council. If i put a roof on an extension that the customer didn't get planning permission for, is that my fault because i'm the roofer so i should have known? I'm going to politely say no. Apparently it's only electricians that have this weird responsibility to their customers where they're also expected to take a financial hit to provide it. It's nonsense and we're the only country in the world that does this, where a guy qualified two years who did an apprenticeship mentored by cowboys can sign off work but an electrical engineer can't because he didn't join a scam.

This reminds me, as a dog breeder, of people who claim being Kennel Club registered is a must because it somehow proves something about your dogs when it's just a big racket.

 

[SparkyChick]

Aside from the fact you seem unable to follow instructions from a member of staff (i.e. my previous direction to start a new thread if you wanted to continue to discuss this), lets clear this up shall we.

I don't like to use the term mansplaining, but that opening paragraph of your last post really does read like you are talking down to a lowly woman who clearly has zero clue about this stuff, despite running her own electrical contracting business. I didn't claim EICRs are notifiable, I was just using them as an example that more people are becoming aware of such things and the other paperwork that should be produced when electrical work is carried out in their homes. Nor did I imply only scheme members can carry out EICRs, but you should be aware that some say councils, for regularisation of previously un-notified works for example, will only accept EICRs from scheme members (Cardiff for example will only accept them from NICEIC and NAPIT members - that was the case the last time I spoke with the building control team), so broad brush statements like 'you don't need to be a scheme member to do an EICR' are factually incorrect because context is key.

Rightly or wrongly, this is what Approved Document P says about notifications/planning (note, this is the 2013 edition as applicable to England):-

"A person intending to carry out building work in relation to which Part P of Schedule 1 imposes a requirement is required to give a building notice or deposit full plans...."

Based on that, I'll conclude my statement about the legal obligation resting with the client is incorrect, as there is a clear implication in a statutory document that whoever is intending to do the work (my interpretation is, that would be us, the electricians) is obliged to submit full plans or submit a building notice. It's there in black and white.

So you have two choices if you want to comply with the law... you either pay big planning fees and spend time writing up plans for every notifiable job you do or you join a scheme (one off annual cost which could well be less than the cost involved in just one job where you submit plans and pay their fees) and submit a building notice after you've been and done the job at a small nominal fee which you pass on to the client.

From a financial perspective alone it's a no brainer, and if you choose to do neither you are breaking the law, plain and simple.

As for being duped, if you've done your due diligence when setting up your business you'll have looked into the various costs related to carrying out work in dwellings and unless you're deliberately setting out to not comply then joining a scheme is the only sensible option because of the reduced fees. In England, there are less notifiable works because the special locations list isn't as strict as it is here in Wales, but even so... one or two new circuits per year and the costs are in your favour.

But then we get to what I suspect is the real heart of the matter... the fact an experienced electrical engineer can't just waltz into a scheme... don't blame the schemes, blame UKAS... they are the ones who set the EAS qualification criteria that we have to meet to join and they have clearly concluded that unless you can demonstrate a sufficient level of relevant experience (i.e. the mature candidate assessment route) then being an electrical engineer means absolutely jack to them. If that's your situation, then I'm sorry, but it's incredibly arrogant to think that being an electrical engineer should somehow grant you a free pass to joining a scheme. I've had the pleasure of working with some very talented engineers, including the people who plan the network for one of the DNOs and some of the people who developed the control systems for some of the UKs power stations... would I trust them to rewire a house just because they are electrical engineers? Not a snowballs chance in hell!

There are also other times when being a scheme member is an advantage... for example, I do quite a bit of work on a local static caravan site (retirement homes essentially) and whilst I've done some emergency maintenance on the distribution network, the park cannot use me for planned works because I'm not with the NICEIC. So, it's not just domestic work where being with a scheme is relevant, companies may insist on it too.

As for me being defensive, given I'm a scheme member (and I advocate for anyone doing domestic work to become a member of a scheme) and you were replying to me then it's hard not to take statements that imply such people have been duped or that we consider ourselves to be superior to unregistered sparks personally and so I felt it necessary to clarify my view on these matters so as to avoid any confusion in the future.

And now I'll try again... if you want to discuss this further, create a new thread for it... any further replies that aren't on topic (i.e. providing assistance or relevant information to the OP) will be deleted.

 

[philectrical]

Aside from the fact you seem unable to follow instructions from a member of staff (i.e. my previous direction to start a new thread if you wanted to continue to discuss this), lets clear this up shall we.

Oh sorry i didn't realise this was school.

I could tell from your self importance by making the whole thread about you even though nobody said anything about you that you'd try to crack the E-whip because you wanted to be able to say what you wanted without anyone trying to refute it. 'Wah i wanted the last word but you responded, i'm staff don't you know!1111' Pathetic.

Spoiler: nobody actually cares that you're 'staff' around here. It's an online forum for chatting. If you don't like what i say then ban me or something, it'll make you feel really big and i literally won't care.

 

[DPG]

Oh sorry i didn't realise this was school.

I could tell from your self importance by making the whole thread about you even though nobody said anything about you that you'd try to crack the E-whip because you wanted to be able to say what you wanted without anyone trying to refute it. 'Wah i wanted the last word but you responded, i'm staff don't you know!1111' Pathetic.

Spoiler: nobody actually cares that you're 'staff' around here. It's an online forum for chatting. If you don't like what i say then ban me or something, it'll make you feel really big and i literally won't care.

Poor attitude. And despite your 'spoiler', I can honestly say I have gained more from Sparky Chick's posts on here than yours.

Your advise on the notification of works carried out is flakey also.

 

[DPG]

Not really. You 'have to' legally notify works, but in the real world pretty much nobody cares.

This wasn't even a debate until people tried to claim not giving a cps scam your money every year made you 'above board', ergo by default claiming those that don't aren't 'above board'.

Anyway whatever, if you think you have to be registered to a scam that's fine. I don't think you do. There are people on here who do notifiable work but don't notify it.

Welcome to the real world, it exists outside of this self-important forum.

You're getting a bit carried away there and putting words into my mouth.

Nobody is saying everybody who isn't in a scheme isn't above board. Just that it makes sense for someone doing domestic work to be a member.

 

[SparkyChick]

Chaps, we're further hijacking this thread... if you want to discuss it further please create a new thread for the discussion. Further off topic posts will be deleted.

 

[BruceBanner]

Thanks for the input people. I do appreciate it & agree with "elements", taken in context from all of your responses. However I am no further forward in truncating the process. It used to be a case of if if you didn't have a certain qualification, you were accepted on the basis that that you committed to gaining it by your next assesment. I never had to go that route but I know some who did. Anyone know or heard of someone who's got in recently on that basis. I have asked but been told no so far, might be one I have to push on.