Old colours (again)

[Knobhead]

Went to have a look at a job yesterday to help out an old colleague. It’s a hangover from years ago, all the panels, and cable, etc. were bought and then the job just got forgotten. Now the MD of the company has gone ballistic wanting to know why it wasn’t fitted. So it’s all hands to the pumps to get it in which is why he got me involved. Said mate is now fretting because the cable is old colours. I had a quick look in the supply switchboard that’s all old stuff. I can’t see a problem with going ahead with the job.

Is there any reason not to?

I’m not bothered, I don’t work there, he does! For all I care the cables could be pink, purple and sky blue with yellow dots so long as it works! It gives me a chance to keep my hand in and it’s understood that due to my back I may knock off as and when.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As I understand it, if the work was designed before the 17th came into force, then it is allowed to be installed and certificated to the earlier edition.
Five and a half years does seem a rather long time to wait though.

 

[IQ Electrical]

As I understand it, if the work was designed before the 17th came into force, then it is allowed to be installed and certificated to the earlier edition.
Five and a half years does seem a rather long time to wait though.

You should see that design though, 5.5 years of careful thought and deliberation!

 

[roukel01]

agreed. Just fit it and don;t worry. If you are really bothered, you'd have to sleeve the old colours to match the new!!

 

[Knobhead]

"Designed" it may have been, unfortunately all the drawings have gone walk-about. So first off I’ve got to sort them, to be honest I think it will be make it up as we go along and do the drawings afterwards. Won’t be the first time I’ve had to do it!

It’s going in on the old colours, sleeving cores would then mean sleeving the panel cores.

What’s p*ssing me off is to save money whoever “designed“ it specified a small supply cable requiring star/delta starters for 3 of the drives. The main board would take DOL starters if the supply cable was big enough.
So to save on a bit of cable, 9 contactors instead of 3. 6 cables instead of 3. I know copper prices had risen even then, but for Christ sakes!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Any chance Tony that you could increas the size of your type?

 

[Knobhead]

Any chance Tony that you could increas the size of your type?

I’ve reduced it because people complained it was too large. I always use Times New Roman at 12pt in word and then cut and paste to here, I then have to convert it back to TNR from Tahoma and from size 3 to size 1. I’m not using my usual PC at the moment.
It now looks OK on this PC, but it sounds like there may be another problem.
Will post this in TNR size 2, let me know if it’s OK.

 

[vaughant]

Reads fine on the iPhone.Pretty sure from memory you can use the old colours,what I would do is put a small part of the installation in on new colours and put a few stickers up saying "this installation uses two different types of colour blah blah blah",you can get them from any electrical wholesalers for a few pence,I'm sure that's fine,after all it could be argued that it's adding to an existing installation rather than a whole new one. Putting a bit of new colour stuff in always helps a bit!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That's better.
In the 16th, it states:
"Installations commencing on site after 31st March 2006 are to comply with the marking requirements of Section 514 as amended, and as appropriate cores identified with harmonized colours. Installations commencing after 31st March 2004 and before 1st April 2006 may be installed in accordance with Amendment No 2 : 2004 or Amendment No 1 : 2002, that is, they may use harmonized colours or the old colours, but NOT both."
This statement appears to indicate that irrespective of the date of design, the use of colours is determined by the date of commencement of installation.
Slightly different to when the 17th edition came out, where it has been allowed that where designed to the 16th, the installation can be installed and tested to the 16th irrespective of when the installation commences.

 

[mechelec]

Personally I would mark the ends with tape with L1, L2, L3 and N. who could possibly complain at that.

 

[Knobhead]

Hi Spin, we’ve got enough cable stashed away to keep entirely to the old colours. I’ve most of the drawings done now so we can get on with it. My mates already run all the mains cables so I don’t have to bother about them. Mind I’ve found out he’s not drilled the 6 pole isolators for the control wiring. I’m hoping before I get involved all the control cubicles will be in place.

 

[Knobhead]

Just an update on this, it’s all up and running. And the eletrickery goes down the old coloured cables just fine
Bloody EU interference :dita:

 

[oxocube]

So its a lot safer as well.

 

[telectrix]

and prettier.

 

[Knobhead]

It is now, all the earthing is done to M&Q standards.

I took just one Ductor reading from the frame of the furthest motor from the supply back to the main earth bar, .0075Ω. Didn’t even bother with any of the rest! No test sheets to file so that’s me done.

 

[telectrix]

but who , in their right mind would pick the colour of soil (earth) as a "live" phase conductor?

 

[SPARTYKUS]

but who , in their right mind would pick the colour of soil (earth) as a "live" phase conductor?

A Muppet.

 

[Knobhead]

A European muppet, and the English with no backbone to stand up to them.

 

[Knobhead]

but who , in their right mind would pick the colour of soil (earth) as a "live" phase conductor?

Just to follow on who in their right mind would declare a colour that has been neutral since time began a phase colour, or a neutral colour a phase?

The company I worked for imported a lot of French control panels, there were some glorious cock up’s to start with. Nothing on the drawings to say they were to “unified” colours! This was long before the fateful declaration had been signed.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My understanding is that the colours were chosen to accomodate people with a recognised colour blindness.
Aparently Brown and blue ar easier to distinguish than red and black.

 

[Engineer54]

My understanding is that the colours were chosen to accomodate people with a recognised colour blindness.
Aparently Brown and blue ar easier to distinguish than red and black.

Shouldn't be in the electrical industry if you suffer from colour blindness. I can remember having a colour blindness test as part of my medical prior to being accepted for the company apprentice scheme. I'm pretty sure that also goes for the telecommunication and other related industries too.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The majority of people suffer from colour blindness, just not to a degree wher it would be recognised as a disability.
To exclude a person from any profession due to a disability (excepting certain excluded professions), would be a contravention of the Disability Discrimination Act and as such illegal.

 

[Des 56]

Here is a concise desription of changing wiring colours that I have made in the past


For homeowners that like to play around with the electrics and delve into the consumer unit
The mixed wiring colours notice on the mains board should read something along these lines


CONSUMER INFORMATION NOTICE

The 3 live conductors, coloured Red ,White, Blue, with the additional Black neutral and a Bare earth, may now have changed to Red Yellow Blue "note" the White is now coloured Yellow ,but the sequence remains,
Be also aware, at present it may now be Brown Black Grey, with Blue neutral or a Grey that is oversleeved as Blue (which as replaced the Black for single phase, but remains as a live for 3 phase), although presently the Black is neutral for older systems, not forgetting the Green/Yellow which as superseded the Green

Not to complicate the matter. but for reference, the bare earth that was Green and is now Green/Yellow, may in fact be Cream if you use a lot of IT eqipment
Other colours are not precluded, as long as coloured identification is used

So put concisely
The live may be Brown, Red, White, Black, Grey, Yellow or Blue
The neutral may be Black,Blue or even Grey
However, colours for central heating control systems may be unfamiliar to you

So,
Be familiar with this information before attempting electrical work,or alternatively get an electrician in

 

[Deleted member 26818]

That should help clarify matters, what colour's live again?

 

[Engineer54]

The majority of people suffer from colour blindness, just not to a degree wher it would be recognised as a disability.
To exclude a person from any profession due to a disability (excepting certain excluded professions), would be a contravention of the Disability Discrimination Act and as such illegal.

When that profession can kill you or more importantly others, then exclusion from that profession is pure commonsense!!

I think you'll find there are a lot more professions that will excluded those with colour blindness than you imagine. None of the armed services will take you on in the electro' services for example. BT along with most other telecommunication companies exclude those with colour blindness from any work involving colour identification. The old electrical authority boards excluded those with colour blindness. I'd like to see any official body fight a discrimination case where identification of multiple cables and there respective colours are crucial to their own and others (as well as property) safety and well being!!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As far as I'm aware, only the Armed Forces and small buisnesses employing less than 15 persons are excluded from the DDA.

 

[Engineer54]

Doesn't really matter who's excluded from DDA, If colour blindness presents a hazard into the workplace, or is totally inappropriate for the type of work being undertaken, then commonsense dictates exclusion on saftey grounds...

 

[brains-lans]

Here is a concise desription of changing wiring colours that I have made in the past

Bored tonight, couldnt resist....

 

[Knobhead]

Just to add a bit more to the colour fun, have any of you made off a 200 twisted pair communications cable? I was asked to do a couple of them, it took me a while but every thing worked OK. Then we had more to do, the foreman decided I’d been to slow on my own, so he’d get a couple of lads working on each end. The colours are very subtle Grey, Slate Grey and Light Grey being among the various colours. So the two lads set off making off the cables. My god what a cock up when it came to testing the plant! Crossed pairs all over the place. One person will set it in his mind what colour is what, two people? What neither of them had twigged was that the cable came with a colour chart, it went in order as the pairs worked their way around the lay of the cable. It was simple to follow, when you stripped the cable you’re faced with a mass of colours but only two primary colours in the outer lay, that was your start point.

I even got an apology from the foreman for saying I was to slow!