Old Houses and location of services.

[BillyTaylor]

Hi all, just had a look at a old style council house that needs some work. Had a spark and a plumber around as its getting re-wired plus he fitted a new 17th ed 14 way CU and is cracking on with the re-wire. The plumber was there at the same time and serviced the boiler and installed a magnaclean. Both the plumber and spark were happy with the works needed. However one thing I pointed out was the location of the gas boiler and 80 litre cylinder tank which were in an airing cupboard above the meter and consumer unit but separated by a ceiling. Now these have always been there and had no problems plus this house is not to big and there are no other locations for them. The gas pipe is in 28mm runs through the floor joists and goes over the CU but it is higher than 150mm I checked ;-) Plus to the left of the consumer unit ie above and running through floor joists again at around 200mm is the water in for tanks, hot water out from cylinder and hot and cold CH feeds, so in essence they are at the worst location ie above the tails. Then you got the cylinder and boiler above that ie services come in at the bottom of the stairs and the electrics and meter have been put in just under the ceiling and the gas and hot water tank just above. Both sparky and plumber said the same thing "old houses what can you do"

My beef is yes 17th edition board and re-wire great protection. But one leak or the tank goes or maintenance is needed on the plumbing above and you run the very real risk of water running onto the meter and or the CU tails and then its time to fry, as there is no tripping protection for that. So any ideas what you would normally do in this situation. The CU needs to go where the meter is located and regardless of where is goes in that area a sealed copper cylinder full of water is above it. Plus the plumbing is staying in that airing cupboard.

I suggested, putting the meter which is just on a bit of ply board into an IP65 enclosure and fitting a 100rcd off the tails in the enclosure before they run to the CU. Open to suggestions and what are the regs on this type of scenario - I'm guessing it probably goes along the lines of placement must be in a suitable environment

Any help or views greatly appreciated. Looking at some of the threads here, these issues to seem all to common in older houses. :cool3:

 

[SirKit Breaker]

Tricky one this, and i have been in a similar situation, where i had meter, cutout and CU in kitchen, which was directly below the bathroom, and all this stuff was directly under the bath. I am not sure how it sits with the regs, as usual it comes down to common sense. What i did was advised on the EIC at the time, that either the bathroom needs re jigging, or the supply etc needs relocating, nigh on impossible. He told me to mind my own business, paid my bill, and i departed, having done all that i could. I would hope that a flood of any significance would blow the cutout fuse, or the moisture would be enough to trip the RCD's, and all would be fine. But you can only do what you can do. Install to the regs, and let the homeowner do the rest.

Cheers.........Howard

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Hi all, just had a look at a old style council house that needs some work. Had a spark and a plumber around as its getting re-wired plus he fitted a new 17th ed 14 way CU and is cracking on with the re-wire. The plumber was there at the same time and serviced the boiler and installed a magnaclean. Both the plumber and spark were happy with the works needed. However one thing I pointed out was the location of the gas boiler and 80 litre cylinder tank which were in an airing cupboard above the meter and consumer unit but separated by a ceiling. Now these have always been there and had no problems plus this house is not to big and there are no other locations for them. The gas pipe is in 28mm runs through the floor joists and goes over the CU but it is higher than 150mm I checked ;-) Plus to the left of the consumer unit ie above and running through floor joists again at around 200mm is the water in for tanks, hot water out from cylinder and hot and cold CH feeds, so in essence they are at the worst location ie above the tails. Then you got the cylinder and boiler above that ie services come in at the bottom of the stairs and the electrics and meter have been put in just under the ceiling and the gas and hot water tank just above. Both sparky and plumber said the same thing "old houses what can you do"

My beef is yes 17th edition board and re-wire great protection. But one leak or the tank goes or maintenance is needed on the plumbing above and you run the very real risk of water running onto the meter and or the CU tails and then its time to fry, as there is no tripping protection for that. So any ideas what you would normally do in this situation. The CU needs to go where the meter is located and regardless of where is goes in that area a sealed copper cylinder full of water is above it. Plus the plumbing is staying in that airing cupboard.

I suggested, putting the meter which is just on a bit of ply board into an IP65 enclosure and fitting a 100rcd off the tails in the enclosure before they run to the CU. Open to suggestions and what are the regs on this type of scenario - I'm guessing it probably goes along the lines of placement must be in a suitable environment

Any help or views greatly appreciated. Looking at some of the threads here, these issues to seem all to common in older houses. :cool3:

what do you mean theres no `tripping protection` for the meter+tails?....what do you think the bullits for?...

 

[snowhead]

Millions of houses have been built this way over the last 100 years or more.
If it was a major problem we'd have heard about it by now.

If you look and think hard enough and in some cases stupidly enough you will always find a potential risk.

Personally I'd be more concerned over the future risks from being bombarded by radio waves from all the gadgets currently around, than from a hot water cylinder splitting.

 

[BillyTaylor]

Probably true snowhead, trouble is when you non stop get bombarded by regs it does begin to do your nut in. I guess it doesn't help with me doing project managing for large retail builds for the last 10yr, all you ever get is grief from clients, and the HSE ready to fine anyone and everyone - when I left this year I could see the difference to the lads and the work from when I first started, they put up with mad pressure, less money shedloads more grief and no common sense from all these reg and safety makers - don't get me wrong I agree with them but the attitude from them is dire. I just thought it was so ironic that we create this safe environment but evryone was happy to have pipe work and 80 litres of water above the meter but like you said lots of homes are like it.

bullits - what are those Glennspark? The way my novice brain sees it, is the meter tails are live and there is nothing but a 60 amp fuse, which the water could run over or run over the tails in the CU - what negates that risk of electrocution?

Anyhoots, looks like its all getting installed like that - I still think its nuts, gas run leaks then CU makes it go boom, water leaks and runs over the cu/meter and you get electrocuted - maintenance is even better, who-d want to be the plumber working above all that draining stuff down. To make matters worse I'm getting my head fried from wifi - I'm off for a can and a chill pill ;-) Thx all :smilielol5:

 

[Knobhead]

If they’ve had an electrician and plumber “around” what is you’re role in this? I just hope you’re not advising the householder.

 

[BillyTaylor]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

well if you don`t know theres a service fuse protecting tails.....then you`v no business presenting yourself as someone who can `QS` on electricians.....probably plumbers n all (but i cant be too sure about them)...

 

[ayjay]

why would a council house need a 14 way cu?
in my day a 4 way was ok

 

[ian.settle1]

Nope tony the plumber is mine and the sparky is mine, I had them round on a build. They completed the re-wire and plumbing for me as part of the renovation works for a client. Used the lads for a long time, they are mates and they are good as gold.

Seemed a tad harsh there Ton, why would you hope I'm not advising them can't I speak to the lads I employ lol? I do have the ability to listen as well as speak - when you combine the two it usually equals learning.

So what are you a builder?

If so why don't you stick to doing what you know and leave the rest to the people who know what their trained and qualified to do.

 

[trev]

what do you mean theres no `tripping protection` for the meter+tails?....what do you think the bullits for?...

By Christ that was a quick two years Glenn. Welcome back mate, nice to see you

 

[bodgit & scarpe]

How far do you go, my roof might leak ?

 

[BillyTaylor]

Christ alive you guys need some of my chill pills, all I was, was querying it. As it happens I've started building buildings locally after working away for 15yrs. I know there is a fuse, and I know that sometimes they don't blow, I also know the water could run down in the meter and over the fuse. I was just mulling it over, especially as it will be my mates who will go back for any maintenance, plus for the people who live in the dwelling. So why the hostility? I have 2 city and guilds trades to advanced, one I completed with old school apprenticeship, I got my A awards, and verifiers, countless tickets, I got 2 degrees, I've been in construction since I was 15 - the one thing I learned in all that time is you can still always learn something - hence popping the question here but only to be insulted by people who (not all) act like primadonna's who themselves could not build a dwelling themselves. Thanks for the welcome, hope to meet you onsite one day ffs.

 

[ian.settle1]

Christ alive you guys need some of my chill pills, all I was, was querying it. As it happens I've started building buildings locally after working away for 15yrs. I know there is a fuse, and I know that sometimes they don't blow, I also know the water could run down in the meter and over the fuse. I was just mulling it over, especially as it will be my mates who will go back for any maintenance, plus for the people who live in the dwelling. So why the hostility? I have 2 city and guilds trades to advanced, one I completed with old school apprenticeship, I got my A awards, and verifiers, countless tickets, I got 2 degrees, I've been in construction since I was 15 - the one thing I learned in all that time is you can still always learn something - hence popping the question here but only to be insulted by people who (not all) act like primadonna's who themselves could not build a dwelling themselves. Thanks for the welcome, hope to meet you onsite one day ffs.

Well you have proved you don't know anything about plumbing or electrics so you can't:fuk2:

 

[bodgit & scarpe]

Jack of all trades, master of none