Outdoor SWA Distribution Circuit; Can it be clipped to a FENCE?

C

Colonel Hathi

Hi
Can anybody pls advise ...
I was under the impression that it is ok to clip SWA along a wall - but not a fence, because a fence is not deemed a permanent structure?
I believed that your only choice was to clip to a wall or bury 600mm deep?
I recently lost a job because the customer was advised by another electrician that it is ok just to clip swa to a fence.
I have been checking the regs and reference books and although I can find details on the requirements for burying a cable, I cannot find where it states that we cannot clip to a fence.
Can anybody solve this one for me?
Ideally I would like to be able to quote either BS7671 or Building regs.
Or is it just a "best practice" issue?

Thanks for your advice chaps
 
Thanks Mark
Yes I knew that you could attach to a wall - but not a fence?
Can you remember off the top of your head where it says that we can only attach to a permanent structure? Is it in BS7671?
I would really like to have this one pinned down because because based on the advice I have given the customer he may think I was just trying to drum up business (although he was going to have to dig the trench himself).

Thanks again
 
i would happily clip swa to a fence if its a nice strong one. whats the problem? once the fence is rotten its the owners problem to get it and the swa sorted.
 
nick611 said:
i would happily clip swa to a fence if its a nice strong one. whats the problem? once the fence is rotten its the owners problem to get it and the swa sorted.
Click to expand...

Really??

Are you saying that you would happily clip the cable to a fence knowing that one day it will need to be replaced......at the customers cost......
 
I'd happily clip to a fence as long as if the fence fell over there would not be any undue hazard,general regulations on mechanical protection of cable apply....I would not be happy to have any terminations attached to the fence though, as clearly they would be a hazard if the fence fell over.
 
Where i live the council have clipped swa 6' up the trunk of a tree, on the edge of the kiddies playground, and finished it with a waterproof JB and every year they put the xmas lights into it. It has been there about 4 or 5 years !
 
Thanks very much for all the replies.
I still haven't found anything in the Regs that says we cannot clip cables to a fence - BUT, I have found a reference in the NICEIC "Domestic Installation Guide" (Page 263).

"Surface Mounted Cables"
Surface fixed cables may be fixed to permanent structures. Timber fencing is not considered to be suitable for supporting cables for reasons which may include the following:
- wood preservatives may attack the cable sheath
- timber fencing is unlikely to be sufficiently rigid
- the life of timber fencing is likely to be less than that of the cable
- damage sustained to the fence due to high winds (may present a risk of electric shock)
Surface fixed cables should not be exposed to prolonged sunlight unless they are ... black thermoplastic"

I would still prefer to have a reference to the BS7671 or Buildings Regs - but at least I can say that I followed NICEIC guidance.

Still interested in your advice chaps - and any Regs references you can give.

Cheers
 
I would have thought there would be a few comments from Health and safety people if they seen a mains cable clipped along a fence, something along the lines of Electric Fence.....what happens if a cow/sheep or even a dog chews through it....or a kid or adult climbs over the fence and splits it, I personally wouldnt put any electricity cables insulated or otherwise anywhere near the easy reach of anybody...

If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


leave them to it, to put a cable along a fence(made from metal wire/mesh) at waist height, they just want to take any work that others are not keen on doing, even if it is blatantly dangerous and/or illegal....right where people (particularly kids) can climb on it, it can be subject to chewing by animals and movement/damage from other causes...and may end up exposing live conductors and also making a length of the fence live...

You were right to refuse to do it, I would also have chosen to bury the cable, the problem is that a lot of customers go round different tradesmen until they hear what they want to hear(which is that it will be done dirt cheap) its a case of "well I think that it can be done this way and I say so" to which the reply is either "thats dangerous-count me out" or "certainly, definately".....they go with the second response, then they ask for a discount for cash....and blame the sparky if anything goes wrong...


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......
 
Thanks Grantr37
I agree with you - an d I will stick to my guns on this I think.
It still surprises me though that - nothing in the regs themselves seems to state specifically that we should only fix to permanent structures (or bury).
Cheers
CH
 
Would have to be pretty determined animal to damage a SWA by chewing at it, and as the SWA should be earthed it should be quite safe.
 
Whilst I see Grantr37's point we are talking SWA, If it was a new panel fence, even better with concrete posts, I would be happy to clip to it, after all people are happy clipping flexes and twin and earth to walls and not worrying about it?

On the other hand if it was arotten picket fence I would probably say no, bury it.
 
I've clipped short runs to concrete fence posts and gravel boards before now, they arnt going anywhere!

Problem is that if you clip to a wooden fence post and NOT the horizontal arris rail, unless you start bolting cleats through the flimsy panel then most fence posts are 6' apart which exceeds the max permissible distance for cleats
 
I have clipped direct to a "secure" fence many times, including niceic assesment jobs, i always use s.w.a, and i also try to keep it as low down as poss.
 
It is entirely down the the designer/installer and that much abused method of 'risk assment". If the designer believes that the fence is of a construction to securely fix the SWA to, and is in a good condition then there is nothing to stop you clipping to a fence.
 
grantr37 said:
If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......
Click to expand...

What would a farm animal be doing in someones back garden?
If you are worried about a pet dog chewing through armoured cable then you must be having some sleepless nights worrying about all the flex to appliances in the houses you have wired that have dogs. The same applies to adults & children being hurt.

I think you look at each installation separately, there are some rickety old fences you wouldn't touch, but a well built fence with the cable properly installed & protected should be ok.

As for the speaker cable, I would of thought that 79 strand would be ok. :)
 
grantr37 said:
I would have thought there would be a few comments from Health and safety people if they seen a mains cable clipped along a fence, something along the lines of Electric Fence.....what happens if a cow/sheep or even a dog chews through it....or a kid or adult climbs over the fence and splits it, I personally wouldnt put any electricity cables insulated or otherwise anywhere near the easy reach of anybody...

If a Farm Animal or a pet dog gets killed chewing/scratching itself on a cable on a fence, you will get the blame and sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an Adult gets hurt, you will get sued for hundreds of thousands of pounds, if an adult gets killed you will get sued for millions and banned from working in a trade, and maybe a year in Jail....If a child gets hurt, you will go to Jail for probably 3 or 4 years and get sued for millions, if a kid was to get a shock and die, they would put you away for maybe 15 years, sue you for/fine you millions of pounds and go after all your immediate familys assets and property as well, and your whole life would be ruined and basically over.....then in jail they would probably end up doing you in.


leave them to it, to put a cable along a fence(made from metal wire/mesh) at waist height, they just want to take any work that others are not keen on doing, even if it is blatantly dangerous and/or illegal....right where people (particularly kids) can climb on it, it can be subject to chewing by animals and movement/damage from other causes...and may end up exposing live conductors and also making a length of the fence live...

You were right to refuse to do it, I would also have chosen to bury the cable, the problem is that a lot of customers go round different tradesmen until they hear what they want to hear(which is that it will be done dirt cheap) its a case of "well I think that it can be done this way and I say so" to which the reply is either "thats dangerous-count me out" or "certainly, definately".....they go with the second response, then they ask for a discount for cash....and blame the sparky if anything goes wrong...


heres a silly example......*Customer*"I want you to put a supply to my caravan from that shed.......I want it in this stuff....(shows a reel of speaker wire)....heres the stuff"........which we would say "No thats dangerous it should be done with this and that".......(customer thinks- thats too expensive).....asks a cowboy.......cowboy says "twenny quid"....and the dodgy work gets done.......
Click to expand...

Quite frankly this it complete testicles...probably one of the least helpful posts I've seen on this forum...you would never expose an electric cable to people??....well then half the flaming country is highly dangerous......and what if you bury the cable and someone digs it up?....minimum life sentence by your scale of punishments.
An SWA clipped along a fence WITH CONSIDERATION OF EXTERNAL INFUENCES is no more hazardous than an SWA installed any other way....of course anyone with half a brain cell would not install a cable where it would be liable to interference from livestock...BUT,that does not mean that ALL SWA's clipped direct to a fence are dangerous....
 
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Yes what a stupid post! I would without a doubt cleat armoured to a fence that was I'n GOOD condition! Very over the top post I think, not needed as an input, that's all I have to say on this post! Hope this clears things up mate!
 
There is a simple rule with regulations:
unless the regulation specifically disallows something, then it is allowed.

Neither is it a requirement that the swa must be buried if it isn't fixed to a wall. You could, if you deem fit, simply lay the swa along the ground at the base of the fence. This addresses the issue of the fence blowing away and taking the cable with it, without the expense of burial. It does of course, bring it's own issues. It is however an option open to you if you think the conditions are right.

To dismiss fixing swa to any fence under all conditions would be wrong. So would fixing it to any old scanky bit of woodwork. Only you can see the conditions at the installation and you must judge what is right for those conditions.

As for Grants post - blatent scaremongering of the worst kind.
 
This is getting a little heated isn't it :-)
The overall position seems to be that BS7671 does not state that wiring must be attached to a permanent structure (?)
The NICEIC guidance is clearly that it should be attached to a permanent structure - and that a timber fence isn't a permanent structure (?)
The general view that people have expressed here is that one needs to take a decision individually based on "external influences" and the condition and ownership of whatever you are thinking of attaching to (?)

I do not have the years of experience that I am sure many of you guys do - so I tend to err always on the side of following the NICEIC - or the safest option. Sometimes that may be a bit "over the top" - so I ask you chaps!

Seriously, thanks for all the responses.
Based on what you chaps have advised, I think I will always advise that the trench or wall are the best options and fully compliant with NICEIC advice - but that based on a site survey and risk assessment it may be possible to attach to solid fencing.

I am just worried that sometimes people do seem to just want to hear the cheapest option - leaving me at risk if things then go wrong later.

I am sure the cleint isn't going to stand up in Cort and say "Yes your Honour he burned down my house and electrocuted my cat - but its ok because he saved me 50 quid" :-)

I think I may actually let this particualr job go anyway. The chap received honest advice from me in the first place, then went off and spoke to another electrician - but didn't have the decency to come back to me with the query (I heard it from a third party)

Thanks again

CH
 
The NICEIC do this a lot, and although they like to think they do, theNICEIC do not write the regs, it's not the first time that the BRB and their guides have differed
 
Does anyone know of a good barrister? I've laid SWA on the ground before and now fear I may be sued by the Association for Rescuing Squirrels Entirely. I don't have hundreds of thousands of pounds. What should I do?
 
jeremy said:
Does anyone know of a good barrister? I've laid SWA on the ground before and now fear I may be sued by the Association for Rescuing Squirrels Entirely. I don't have hundreds of thousands of pounds. What should I do?
Click to expand...

LOL mmm nasty - being had by the ARSE :D
 
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It's not A.R.S.E you need to worry about...it's the Forthright Union of Cable Operatives Fixing to Fences you want to avoid upsetting.
 
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Good god.

I thought we were spose to be on eachothers side.

Grant, your post was scare-mongering. Really ridiculous. Awful.

Attaching an swa to a secure fence is not a problem in my book.
 
Hi SMB
Clearly a lot pf people disagree with Grantr about always using a trench.
Don't you agree though that there are customers who will - as Grantr says - always look just for the easiest/cheapest route; and leave the electrician who obliges them liable if anything later goes wrong?
In the case I was asking about, the client didn't even come back to me to discuss options; I suspect he simply went for the electrician who told him what he wanted to hear.
I should stress also that in suggesting that a trench was needed, I wasn't trying to "talk up the job" - I wasn't going to dig the trench myself anyway - it made no financial difference to me.
I know this will not be a popular suggestion but here goes ...
Why not add a special locations section to the regs at some point in the future for Gardens and/or supplies to outbuildings?
I know many people will not want to add even more stuff to the regs - but loads of people are adding power to gardens for lights, outbuildings etc and the garden is surely one of the areas of highest risk.

What do you think?
 
Hi.
I do agree that people want the cheapest route possible.
Safety is the important issue here.
If the fence is in sound condition then clipping a swa to it should be fine.
but........
fences do rot.
errrmm....
not many swa cables that are buried in gardens are correctly covered.
food for thought.
 
If the customer was going to dig the trench then what's to say you lost the work just over that factor? Are they having the garden re-done so are able to have a trench dug easily anyway?

I have seen many swa's clipped to fences along the lower beams as well as laid along the ground along the fence. I have also clipped swa to fences before. Albeit they have all been new fences and as others have said I also wouldn't do it on a run down or even a new flimsly fence.
If clipping to a fence rcd the cable as well.

There are many garden lights, like the spike spot lights that have a rubber flex that lays on the ground in flower beds, or if you use underground junction boxes you still have some degree of rubber flex on show a dog, goat, child or squirrel could chew
 
i've done it before, see no problem with it at all, as long as it looks neat and the customer is happy.
 
pushrod said:
I took it as a spoof :confused:
Click to expand...

i thought the dramatic, "you will go to jail and be done in, sued for millions, buggered by large hairy men, be struck down by lighting, eaten by pirahnas etc" was quite funny! Thats true emphasis of a point...i like it
 
Many building sites across the country have lights on temporary exterior fences.
Most are wooden, but some of the fences are the metal mesh held up by concrete block type.
 
I quoted on a fairly big job recently. After the quote was accepted the client asked me if i could wire up his new electric front gates. 'should be easy, there is already a power supply down there' he told me. When i started the job, i had a look for this power supply. It was 1.5mm T&E run about 50M down his picket fence to 3 outhouses supplying 5 lights and 3 twin sockets. I told him i would quote seperately for the supply to the gates and perhaps a new supply to his outhouses!
 
On my view when you design an installation you decide what cable to use, You would also ensure the appropriate installation method is used, consider the best method for the life of the installation. The fence has a life much less than your installation by nature of the material it's made from. if you bury or catenary it is likely to last for the life of the installation. Pinning on Walls is more robust as long as you have assessed the probability of physical damage.
 

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Outdoor SWA Distribution Circuit; Can it be clipped to a FENCE?
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