Parliamentary Inquiry

[Spudnik]

What would you all suggest as a realistic minimum requirement for scheme membership?

We all come here moaning about it, but no one has really come up with any attempt at a sensible solution.

Now, we know that just studying a book for a few days does not give any experience in the field whatsoever, but with no apprenticeships available anymore, and employers requiring experienced electricians, what else would you suggest?

Input welcome, without the use of handbags.

 

[trev]

How about 7671 + Domestic Installers Cert (so at least they will have done a little wiring, albeit in a classroom) + 2391 (So they would have some idea about how complex the trade can be)
Maybe I'm being over optimistic given the success rate of 2391 but it would be better than the current situation where anyone who can read could conceivably be out working a week after an open book exam

 

[johnboy6083]

a requirement to make apprenticeships available. When apprentice enrolls on a course, part of the cost shopuld be for enrolling them in work placements. this would equally apply to people self funding at whatever age. Why shouldnt a loan system similar to uni loans, not be available to apprentices? to allow them to learn a craft, and sustain themeslves along the way.
the comapniesget free labour, and in return, they have to have to train the apprentices properly. There should be a minimum spark-apprentice ratio, to ensure the system is not abused.
the employers should not have to pay them for the first 2 years (an apprentice loan sustains them), and as long as they have passed the first 2, then years 3 and 4 are paid.

yopu must pass moduls to be allowed to carry on, and if you fail then itcosts you in the form of repaying the apprentice loan.

 

[trev]

The thing is John the government are not going to spend money on building trades. That has been proven by every government that have been in office since I left school. It might be different if we were training to become doctors or lawyers but trades, no chance.
There's a massive shortage of housing in this country so to get the economy going they could build social housing instead of giving money they have just printed to banks thus storing up problems for our children but they need to keep their mates in the city sweet.

 

[fuzzydunlop]

As a minimum requirement for scheme membership

17th but not in its present form, before I started training I was under the impression the 17th Edition "monicker" actually meant something. It doesn't, it means you can find an answer in a book, albeit a big and complicated one but still the answer is there, it doesn't give you a technical understanding of the why + plus you only need to get 60% of the questions right

A proper C&G/EAL course that last longer than 5 days

2392

And only allowed to work in domestic, if they want to do any commercial work 2391 as a requirement

 

[Rockingit]

I think trying to get bogged down in very industry specific jargon is unhelpful. I will be writing, as a contractor-business owner, and I will be talking to my local MP about it too, as he and I had a very helpful conversation over my concerns over the risk of monopolies occuring with the Smart Meter / house safety inspection idea proposed by the ESC.

Break the whole thing down into pieces -
1) Part P isn't working because it:
a) disadvantages experienced qualified electricians in conducting quality business
b) encourages a black market of cheap unskilled (and therefore dangerous) labour to undercut costs to the consumer because of the increased costs to the legitimate contractor
c) is insufficiently policed to be a deterrent to consumers to conduct their own work meant to be controlled
d) resellers are not required to place any controls to deter (c) above.

2) Part P would be made better by:
a) increased requirements for both academic and skills based qualifications for contractors, which could be encouraged greatly by a return to the apprenticeship system
b) increased public awareness of the requirements of Part P
c) the introduction of ONE sole registration scheme to aid clarity for consumers
d) increased policing through fines and other deterrents for unqualified contrators providing services.

There you go, expand as you wish. That's probably about a hundred odd words, so plenty of scope to pad it out.

 

[UNG]

It's a question I have been thinking of asking for a while

What is a "Qualified electrician" these days and what is the minimum qualification to achieve that status

You see so many items for sale that must be installed by a qualified electrician or items that should be installed by a competant person and it begs the question what is qualified or competant. None of these items state must be installed by a registered Part P installer or is it that they understand that Part P does not necessarily test the status of those joining these schemes

With some of the questions asked on this forum is internet and forum access required to be qualified

The sham that is Part P has done nothing to improve safety IMHO having seen a new build installation recently it fell short in a number of areas and this was done by an NICEIC DI.

Until we get rid of the short course qualification and bring back proper training and experience to gain the qualification of electrician then this industry will continue to go to the dogs not helped by Part P

 

[topquark]

It seems it's the educational providers that are setting the qualification levels required for the industry (along with a lot of unnecessary drag along stuff like QCF, admittedly in consultation with the SSC).

Unfortunately, those providers are setting a continually moving bar (for their own financial reasons), hands up all who have an NVQ3? It's almost as if it warrants a, nationally (European given the harmonisation thrust?) recognised, educational attainment level of "Electrician" (maybe that should still be sitting/passing the AM2 as originally intended?) that would then stay with you, once attained (a bit like a degree qualification does).

Then you'd only have to keep up with wiring and building regs (and possibly ongoing related quals eg 2391). As it stands you need to keep an equivalent load of pieces of paper, depending on when you did your education.

What do you then do about folk who have no formal qualifications (grandfather rights) but have been doing the job for years, let time take care of it? IE do nothing but require all new folk to be qualified.

Who should then govern (choosing the word carefully, IE not a private (profit making) company) this? Who should police (with teeth) the industry and work done?

 

[Zeno]

Re: Parliamentary Enquiry

The core problem is that the Schemes, Training industry, Awarding bodies and Accreditation industry all live off OUR TRADE.

When they have meetings to discuss Policy, Competence levels, Qualifications etc. they have their own financial interests as priority number one. This has been displayed over and over again during the corrupt Part P era. On the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] December 2011, they voted to keep churning out 5DW’s until April 2013, this was supposed to have stopped on the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January, 2012, another commercial scam.


Why should the Schemes represent Our Trade, especially when even DCLG have stated that they do not know if what they are told is true!


There should be just one brand name, Electric XXXX that the public could recognise, with multiple organisations providing services, to keep competition and fees down. None of them could be trusted to run a single organisation Monopoly, but they all fight to become that single Monopoly.


There should a single definition of Qualified Electrician which should apply to the Individual not the Enterprise as in the dangerous QS system. The Schemes should be banned from those discussions because have shown that they cannot be trusted, neither do they have the will to do it.



When I speak to MP’s the most interesting thing is, like the Public they cannot believe the low standards set, the commercial scams that go on, and disbelief that DCLG allows them.

 

[sparky1502]

having spent the last 3 years in the educational folly i think the college and learning providers need to put and end to the idea of all pupils entering will pass the course no matter what. there needs to be a bench mark and if you don't meet the requirements you need to study harder or quit. if nothing else this will help employers have faith in the college system as frankly the education we receive is this country is poor.

 

[UNG]

having spent the last 3 years in the educational folly i think the college and learning providers need to put and end to the idea of all pupils entering will pass the course no matter what. there needs to be a bench mark and if you don't meet the requirements you need to study harder or quit. if nothing else this will help employers have faith in the college system as frankly the education we receive is this country is poor.

It's not PC to tell people they have failed or don't meet the standard required, thats why everything is so screwed up in this country

 

[pushrod]

Communities and Local Government Committee are releasing their recommendations for this on friday.

Hope people haven't been holding their breath waiting for change!

Think that neicic, elecsa and napit have been buying them lunch.

 

[Zeno]

Communities and Local Government Committee are releasing their recommendations for this on friday.

Hope people haven't been holding their breath waiting for change!

Think that neicic, elecsa and napit have been buying them lunch.

Yeah, with Our Money, don't forget Unite Union, short course providors, the IET book club etc.....

The intersting thing is, that their findings are only going to be published on the original remit, not the fuller facts of "The Industy" scams, it not over yet.

 

[Des 56]

Here it is,the report by the select committeee
House of Commons - Building Regulations applying to electrical and gas installation and repairs in dwellings - Communities and Local Government Committee


The conclusion is, carry on and do better,schemes to tell public part p exists,"oh yea and pigs will fly"

Free the kitchen fitters to do what they like,reduce areas to be notified,"well they mutilate our trade already"

Make qualified non registered sparks have their work inspected by a 5 DW "The industrial and commercial boys are to be treated with contempt once again"

Finally,ignore all the problems caused by cowboy non registered and Pete in the pubs and the diy efforts, because the public will now get to know about them and get someone registered,"are these people for real"

What a fudge,what an ignorant lot.its no wonder they mess up the rest of the running of the country

 

[trev]

What a complete load of nonesense, I lost interest after the bit where they all patted each other on the back for raising standards. I think I'll log off for a bit and have a swearing fit, at least my wife can't ban me