Part P Police

[silva.foxx]

Chaps (and Gals)

As with all electrical forums there appears to be many members who are apparent Part P Police. I am not against this as we need to secure our trade.

What I'm getting at; sparks on this site, or others, who are not on the 'register' must surely carry out work on their own homes which is deemed notifiable. Albeit these sparks may have been doing this trade for years and may heve 2391 certification to boot.

Do these sparks go down the proper route or do they carry on regardless?

regards
s.f

 

[Spudnik]

If its in their own homes, i expect they may just get on with it and worry about it later.

 

[Des 56]

The lack of enforcement of the ill thought out part p means that qualified electricians who have taken no part in this enforced nonesense, are at an advantage compared to the rest of us who have subscribed
It is debateable whether they or us are the idiots
Being un registered has not caused any restriction to practising electricians who have ignored this initiative
Up till now the registered electrician has seen no advantage whatso ever with the introduction of the legistlation,in fact quite the opposite is true, they are dis advantaged because of the extra cost of notification and annual fees etc,but hope that this will change,although progress is very slow
Part p police
This lack of enforcement which has been described and puts the registered spark at such a disadvantage is now being put on the shoulders of those disadvantaged sparks to complain/inform on breaches
Until this scheme is taken much more seriously by the councils,who at present have difficulty even being aware of the scheme, never mind enforcing its requirements,then there is no hope of it being succesfull
Time is running out for this pathetic atempt at regulation, or could that be money generation in the form of a hiddden stealth tax

 

[62patrick]

Well said DES 56, I have been registered with the NICEIC from Jan 05, I moved last week to NICEIC AC,
When I had the thumbs up from the inspector he said any questions , well I just couldn’t resist saying that
I’ am fed up with unregistered people carrying out work, his comments was report them and if you think that no one is acting on it phone me its up to all of us to work together to stamp out unregistered work & workers. The very next day I was going to wire a cooker at an existing customers house, ( new kitchen being fitted ) when we arrived the kitchen fitter said ‘I’ am sorting the sockets out mate, my next comment was who are registered with mate, I’ am not I don’t need to be registered because I’ve been doing it for years and they know me, like stuff mate, the customer was standing in the back ground who said its best that the electrician does all the wiring. I should of let him carry on with it & tried out the local council to see how strong or week they are.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff is getting on my…………….!!!!

 

[silva.foxx]

Thanks for the replies so far... I'm sure this is not a new or touchy subject!

I know, well believe, I am suitably experienced/qualified to carry out my own install and test at my own home regardless of any LABC. I don't plan on moving from this gaff in the next 25 years so what they don't know won't hurt...yet if things go t!ts-up in the current '£ drown' then the house may be sold on to ordinary persons who'll need an electrical certifcate! - This I do not plan for.

I have recnetly moved into a dormer bungalow, 1968 build with wiring from that era with stranded T&E and BS3036 CU. I have 15 years exp in electricity + 17th + insp & test. As per another thread regarding JIB, etc.. I may not be applicable for qualification as an 'electrician' regardless of my indentured/NVQ3 industrial background. Maybe I'm being a little 'ahead of myself' (please tell me if so).

Should I really go and employ a spark, possibly just out of college, to come and rewire my home then test it?

I have been offered in the past some "red'n'black", but why should qualified sparks hide behind old cable colours?

I just find it a little amusing that these kitchen fitters are allowed, under Part P, to have their own little section where they conform to being a 'qualified' spark. What's in their scope; can they just add to or modify the kitchen circuit? Does this kitchen fitter become responsible for the whole installation now? Do they take on this responsibilty or is there something within their 'Part P' certification that detatches them from any ownership? (Note: I have nothing personal against kitchen fitters.)

Thanks so far

Regards
s.f

 

[Spudnik]

I think all of the schemes offer a defined scope membership, which means that kitchen fitters and the like can modify the circuits related to their business and notify.

 

[ezzzekiel]

could argue that if its in your own house then its under the supervision of skilled/instructed persons

 

[sparkswillfly]

if the goverment realy wanted to restrict tom dick and harry from installing electrics they would stop all the diy stores from selling consumer units and alike to unqualified customers

 

[acvc]

Yeah that has shown to be possible. I spent six weeks in Western Australia December/January, and it's practically impossible to find even 6242Y for sale in the DIY stores, I was told by store staff that it's state policy and only going to get worse/better. So there's no reason why we can't do it here in UK too.

 

[kung]

Agree with replies its a joke ! nothing more than a money making scam ! if your not compitant you wont pass exams etc and you do get assessed there as well ! i was in B & Q the other day and this worker in the electrical section was telling this couple who had no idea of how/if/when/what you get the jist about electrics and by the time they left he'd told them how to basically install a CU/shower/immer heater etc with no mention of building control or testing etc ! its a joke and they even got big boards up with installs so your gran could do it ! should be stopped ! its a joke ! anything to sell their goods ! the way i see it is FULLY QUALIFIED SPARKS should be exempt from this as ALL your work HAS to comply with bs7671 2008 ! i have nothing against part p and its good that there is somthing in place so stop these unregistered people working with electrics BUT this so called policing well thats a joke in itself ! better policing and tougher penalties thats whats needed but i think i will have more chance getting headbutted by the pope than that happening !
Regards
Ranting Kung.
(Whats new)

 

[Andy Smith]

If you think that’s a joke then think about this.

A factory electrician can do anything he/she likes if they are deemed competent in a industrial panel. With 415v three phase very high currents AC and Yes DC good Ah (NOT) they don’t need part P and the usual requisite in 17th edition (which in most cases is totally irrelevant) to be employed as an electrician. If you work above 50v then you should be fully qualified full stop and be able to prove that you have a good track record. Electricity kills and it doesn’t have to be high voltage either.

 

[silva.foxx]

If you think that’s a joke then think about this.

A factory electrician can do anything he/she likes if they are deemed competent in a industrial panel. With 415v three phase very high currents AC and Yes DC good Ah (NOT) they don’t need part P and the usual requisite in 17th edition (which in most cases is totally irrelevant) to be employed as an electrician.

Andy, can you elaborate on "...do anything he/she likes...in an industrial panel"?

I guess you've seen some of the shocking circuit modifications wired in in random colours with no markings and no schematics to boot! Rat's nest usually springs to mind.

Most sparks I have worked with have come through indentured apprenticeships with papers, plus have many years experience and knowledge of industry.

In my first role I worked alongside two former mining electricians who had been used to pulling large cables in the dark! They'd never seen some of our low voltages, yet were deemed fit to wire/troubleshoot panels. One of them I'd be hard-pushed to allow him to wire up the laces through the eyelets of my boots. He believed if you had a voltage between L-E then the thing should work!

I worked with one lad, who managed to blow a star-delta starter by just replacing some contacts! The same lad didn't know the difference between 24 volt ac and dc.

Apart from the few bad apples, most of the sparks I've worked with have been very competent!

What regs do Public Utility and HV electricians work to?


Regards
s.f

 

[pushrod]

If you are in a Part P scheme can you certificate work that you do in your own home

 

[Andy Smith]

In factory life, as a maintenance engineer. Its is often the case that the said person had done a fully indentured apprenticeship or NVQ as a mechanical engineer, and has also been on a two week electrical course. It seems that they are now looked upon as competent (and some are very good) by some employers, however a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands. I personnel would not let some of them wire up a 1.5volt battery and lamp. Just strikes me as wrong that these people are allowed to get away with it. After all factories are run by the people, now possibly working on machinery that is not necessarily safe. Not much different than some having unprotected systems in your home except high voltage more current different frequencies and more people at risk at any given time.

Sorry missed the last bit off. We still work to 17th edtion etc. But not much applies to panels really.

Perhaps i should mention i did a four year apprenticeship in mechanical engineering, then backed it up with a further six doing electrical training. No one can learn another trade in a short time.

 

[sivoodoo]

You can buy handcuffs from a joke shop, maybe the part P police already have them

 

[Des 56]

If they issued me with baton and handcuffs,they could still keep the enforcement to themselves

 

[sambuca2907]

Well said DES 56, I have been registered with the NICEIC from Jan 05, I moved last week to NICEIC AC,
When I had the thumbs up from the inspector he said any questions , well I just couldn’t resist saying that
I’ am fed up with unregistered people carrying out work, his comments was report them and if you think that no one is acting on it phone me its up to all of us to work together to stamp out unregistered work & workers. The very next day I was going to wire a cooker at an existing customers house, ( new kitchen being fitted ) when we arrived the kitchen fitter said ‘I’ am sorting the sockets out mate, my next comment was who are registered with mate, I’ am not I don’t need to be registered because I’ve been doing it for years and they know me, like stuff mate, the customer was standing in the back ground who said its best that the electrician does all the wiring. I should of let him carry on with it & tried out the local council to see how strong or week they are.
Sorry for the rant, but this stuff is getting on my…………….!!!!

This is an example of kitchen fitter work I have found... That's NOT on... luckily I found, ripped it all out and re-wired it all with crimps and choc boxes, BEFORE the appliences went in... This was in a house that the owner is hoping to get £26 million for as well... so the kitchen must have come from a well respected and known firm...

I'm an electrical contractor for an NICEIC registered firm, and am looking at getting myself Elecsa registered so I can properly sign off my own work. But I do not understand the process AT ALL. Apparently I don't need the Part P course/exam??? Can anyone clarify this... as I'm baffled by it all!

 

[Sparky-Tom]

In factory life, as a maintenance engineer. Its is often the case that the said person had done a fully indentured apprenticeship or NVQ as a mechanical engineer, and has also been on a two week electrical course. It seems that they are now looked upon as competent (and some are very good) by some employers, however a little knowledge is dangerous in the wrong hands. I personnel would not let some of them wire up a 1.5volt battery and lamp. Just strikes me as wrong that these people are allowed to get away with it. After all factories are run by the people, now possibly working on machinery that is not necessarily safe. Not much different than some having unprotected systems in your home except high voltage more current different frequencies and more people at risk at any given time.

Sorry missed the last bit off. We still work to 17th edtion etc. But not much applies to panels really.

Perhaps i should mention i did a four year apprenticeship in mechanical engineering, then backed it up with a further six doing electrical training. No one can learn another trade in a short time.

I can agree with you on the fact of these two week electrical courses! Or any other "become an electrician" courses the job centre or skills direct or whatever other companies run! They are micky mouse and should be stopped. Most of the people who do them are NOT electrically competent! I feel they take the **** out of the hardworking young people who are serving full 4 year electrical apprenticeships. If these micky mouse courses were a viable way of training competent electricians, why would the 4 year apprenticeships exist in the first place?

Sorry, its abit off-topic, but I feel strongly about this issue! These micky mouse courses should be stopped!

 

[Spudnik]

Chaps,

Im all for one venting ones spleen, but watch the language, however mild.

 

[Sparky-Tom]

Sorry, I thaught by me blanking out the last 3 letters it would have been fine.

 

[Spudnik]

No prob, however there is a notice, which you may not have seen, at the top of every page regarding language.

 

[Andy Smith]

Sorry for raising blood temperature. Seems there are simular issues in all sorts of electrical trade, maybe thats part of the issue, no common recognition. After all its all electrical just different branches. Different for me because im not in the domestic segment but unfourtunatly deal with same type of issues.

 

[Sparky-Tom]

I also work in the industrial sector. But fortunatly for me, every mechanical guy I have worked with has admitted they are no electrician and they wouldnt touch any electrical system apart from the basic 24VDC used in most control systems. But I have heard some horror stories from the older electricians I work with.

One such story is a mechanical guy who did one of those fast track electrician courses. He was asked to wire up a 197A 3 phase motor. That motor had a start up current of rougly 260A (a rule of thumb is add a third of the running current to get the start up current) and he used 10mm 4 core SWA. BANG!

I have also had a horror story in my workplace involving an "electrician" who had served a 4 year apprenticeship and was doing his HNC at the time he came to do the work. He was connecting some 200A compressors in the plant room, he couldnt find the right size lugs for the job (95mm i think it was) so he decided to use 50mm lugs with the 95mm cable and just wrap the remaining strands in tape and proceeded with the job. I managed to find these lugs while I was checking the system ready for first power up. I have photos on my computer somehwere of the shoddy workmanship. Il upload when I find them.

So it just goes to show that even people who have served a full apprenticeship are sometimes dangerous.

Contridiction to my first post?

Anyway...Essay over!

 

[acvc]

I agree that there is simply no comparison between a four year apprenticeship and a six week course. I have done the domestic installer course myself and frankly was shocked (no pun) at how little I was taught. But still passed the electrotechnical, building regs, and 17th edition exams.

I would have absolutely loved to be able to do an apprenticeship, and done it properly. I always wanted to be an 'electrician' and left a secure job to retrain as one. BUT. I was told by three diffeent colleges that there was zero chance of me getting even a one year apprenticeship as part of a course, DUE TO MY AGE. I'm in my forties, and was gutted, as i had saved up just enough money to pay the fees, was working as a spark's mate in a domestic building company, thought i was all set up to do it properly.

Age discrimination got in the way, employers are scared if you're not straight out of school and eager to accept £20 a week. So ... there was a good reason for doing the domestic installers course, I had to. Why is it so hard for non school leavers to get an apprenticeship, aren't we all meant to be flexible and ready to adapt to a changing labour market etc etc, as the free market preachers would like it. Sorry for rant, but there's more to it than just saying the coure is crap (which I would tend to agree with anyway!)

 

[Andy Smith]

Diversified a little from the part P but interesting none the less.

Dont think anyone is to old by the way acvc, comes down to if you are given a chance, unfourtunatly some are not! I have taken on two people in ther forties and giving them both the opertunity to become fully trained its going to take three to four years they are still being paid as skilled mechanical engineers. They get trained and i end up with two more people that are worth even more to me!

 

[acvc]

Good on you AndySmith. I wish there were more like you.

Yes sorry for going of topic. Won't happen again!

 

[boatnik1]

Legislation and idiots in offices will be the ruination of more than Sparking. Ref the panorama item on the use of a ladder or stepladder course for only £230.00 with an appropriate cert at the end of it. The HSE take a simple piece of Euro-babble and enlarge it into a book, and every other cretin within government justify their existence by churning out more unworkable rules and laws and restrictions that raise our insurance premiums and stop people thinking for themselves. Whatever happened to being responsible for your own safety. No matter what happens now, it's always somebody elses fault and they need to be sued. I served my time as a spark for five years between 1961 and '66 (13th.ed. in the UK then) and common sense was the rule of the day when you carried the can for your mistakes and not your boss or anyone else.. All these bits of legislation and Part Ps etc do is line the pockets of the various trade bodies and branches of Government. I'm glad to be retired and away from all this nonsense, and yeah I still do the odd bit for friends and family.

 

[Des 56]

What a very good sensible post
For us older sparks it seems there is overboard mammying of individuals
Regulation of people, by people who are living on a different planet
The compensation culture that has swept the society as taken individual responsibility away and shielded it in this overwhelming tide of regulation
The depressing conclusion of it,unfortunately,is that it is self perpetuating and will continue unabated

 

[Andy Smith]

You can say that again. Absolutley does my head in all this its some one else fault. Take responsibilty your self and if you dont know ask!