PAT Testing Method ?????

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Guys just for your thoughts,

I was on a site recently and we encountered the local PAT guy, luckily we as a company don't do PAT so I have limited knowledge on the subject.

He was using an extension lead and testing about 10-15 items in one go and then stickering them all up after testing all the items in one hit.

We asked him out of curiosity if you can do this as we where not sure and he advised it is the equivalent of a global test when doing IR testing. He told us that if all 15 etc pass in one go then individually they must pass so of course it is ok.

Just looking for people's opinions on this as I have limited PAT knowledge has anyone else seen this done ????

 

[Tiny Spark]

Yeah agree this sounds very dodgy to me.
You could argue a global ir test is ok for class 2 appliances but there is absolutely no way you could justify this for class 1 stuff.
You have to be able to provide results for each individual item which he obviously can not as he will just get the worst possible scenario.
Just out of interest was he doing function or leakage tests?

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Think one kettle appliance turned on e.g hair dryer then the rest left off, he would have to sometimes he would do about 20 kettles I think the fuse may go if he tried do them all on load.
As I said he only puts pass or fail down on his sheets so it is non specific.
With regards to items he says he did 200 items a day but we never see him after 1PM so I think he must do 5 hours a day at max and still gets 200 items done must be some PAT but as I sat its not my forte so can't shoot him down but I have my suspicion

 

[Risteard]

Yeah agree this sounds very dodgy to me.
You could argue a global ir test is ok for class 2 appliances but there is absolutely no way you could justify this for class 1 stuff.
You have to be able to provide results for each individual item which he obviously can not as he will just get the worst possible scenario.
Just out of interest was he doing function or leakage tests?

Actually I think the justification could only be for Class I - as the cpc connection is there and therefore you will get the insulation resistances in parallel. For Class II it is no good as you would need to test between live conductors and exposed metalwork etc. which clearly would require you to probe each asset.

But as said, even with Class I, then it leaves the problem of needing to conduct an earth bond on each asset - so is there any real benefit? I suspect not.

Another problem is that you would have to verify that the fuses were all intact for the insulation resistance test to be meaningful.

 

[ackbarthestar]

We asked him out of curiosity if you can do this as we where not sure and he advised it is the equivalent of a global test when doing IR testing. He told us that if all 15 etc pass in one go then individually they must pass so of course it is ok.

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

 

[Risteard]

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

In fairness, the global insulation resistance part is the correct way to do that! Although obviously cpc continuity should be verified via dead testing before energising for initial verification!

 

[Tiny Spark]

Actually I think the justification could only be for Class I - as the cpc connection is there and therefore you will get the insulation resistances in parallel. For Class II it is no good as you would need to test between live conductors and exposed metalwork etc. which clearly would require you to probe each asset.

But as said, even with Class I, then it leaves the problem of needing to conduct an earth bond on each asset - so is there any real benefit? I suspect not.

Another problem is that you would have to verify that the fuses were all intact for the insulation resistance test to be meaningful.

Not sure if you are a little confused there.
Class 1 are appliances with earthed and exposed metal work.
Class 2 is double insulated.

Therefore with class 1 you have to do a earth bond test on each appliance.
With a basic class 2 then its on IR.

 

[Darkwood]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

completely gob smacked

Guys,

We did an EICR on an entire site a few weeks ago the site consists of numerous out buildings, sheds, maintenance shops etc. The site is entirely covered in Tarmac and all cables to these various buildings fed from a main sub are SWA cables using the armouring as the earth

The issue is that all out buildings etc the earth loop impedance is too high.

The earth loop in the Sub is fine but due to length of run etc the earth loop at all the boards is too high.

We have advised the site about this and explained they need to run separate earth to each out building with the cable.

They have come back to us today after their electrician has said he plans to run an earth ring around the perimeter of the site tapping in to each building as required instead of digging up the Tarmac to each building,

How he plans to do this we are yet to hear but I think I can hear a yeeeee haaaaaaa in the horizon

 

[Tiny Spark]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

Ya know I have never flash tested a single appliance LOL
Most modern testers dont even have the capability I dont think, Our old robin can do it but never been needed.

 

[ipf]

If there's a steel fence round, he'll be able to cable tie to it.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

guys,

we did an eicr on an entire site a few weeks ago the site consists of numerous out buildings, sheds, maintenance shops etc. The site is entirely covered in tarmac and all cables to these various buildings fed from a main sub are swa cables using the armouring as the earth

the issue is that all out buildings etc the earth loop impedance is too high.

The earth loop in the sub is fine but due to length of run etc the earth loop at all the boards is too high.

We have advised the site about this and explained they need to run separate earth to each out building with the cable.

They have come back to us today after their electrician has said he plans to run an earth ring around the perimeter of the site tapping in to each building as required instead of digging up the tarmac to each building,

how he plans to do this we are yet to hear but i think i can hear a yeeeee haaaaaaa in the horizon

sorry meant to be new thread

 

[Darkwood]

Ya know I have never flash tested a single appliance LOL
Most modern testers dont even have the capability I dont think, Our old robin can do it but never been needed.

If an item is double insulated the integrity of the insulation has to be clarified and this can only be done with the flash test as basic insulation testers dont have a high enough voltage output or ability to sustain the voltage to do a full flash test... i take it you never tested a class II in your life then :smilielol5r you avoid the whole senerio altogether ... we used to have a manual PA-Tester but i got a Martindale micro-pat+ just press a few buttons and let it cycle only pressing advance when the set-up needs changing.

 

[Tiny Spark]

If an item is double insulated the integrity of the insulation has to be clarified and this can only be done with the flash test as basic insulation testers dont have a high enough voltage output or ability to sustain the voltage to do a full flash test... i take it you never tested a class II in your life then :smilielol5r you avoid the whole senerio altogether ... we used to have a manual PA-Tester but i got a Martindale micro-pat+ just press a few buttons and let it cycle only pressing advance when the set-up needs changing.

Tested more than my fair share sadly

However regarding flash testing when I did the course many moons ago we were told to only carry out flash testing if the appliance had been repaired or was suspected of having the insulation breaking down.
Reason being that flash testing can damage the appliance and that they are flash tested by the manufacturer.

So yeah ive never carried one out.
I have sold my tester now but it did not have the ability to do a flash test.

 

[Darkwood]

Was told similar but as i work in factories everything i touch has been repaired and hand grinders filling up with metal dust means i get alot of fails so for me and my circumstances its a regular crucial test..... had a guy get a shock off a double insulated drill 230v ... the circuit was rcd covered and tested working fine but it hadn't tripped so obviously leakage not high enough but was down to fine metal dust from the workshop settling on the com' brush holder and tracking to the metal case.... it failed the flash test but passed a normal insulation test to same point..... high pressure dried compress air line did the job ..... yep your correct about the flash test use but in a factory it would be used a bit on the bench tools.


Yes i know it should ideally be 110v gear but you test what they got and advise accordingly it up to them to listen or not but least i fitted rcd protection on all 230v outlets.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Was told similar but as i work in factories everything i touch has been repaired and hand grinders filling up with metal dust means i get alot of fails so for me and my circumstances its a regular crucial test..... had a guy get a shock off a double insulated drill 230v ... the circuit was rcd covered and tested working fine but it hadn't tripped so obviously leakage not high enough but was down to fine metal dust from the workshop settling on the com' brush holder and tracking to the metal case.... it failed the flash test but passed a normal insulation test to same point..... high pressure dried compress air line did the job ..... yep your correct about the flash test use but in a factory it would be used a bit on the bench tools.


Yes i know it should ideally be 110v gear but you test what they got and advise accordingly it up to them to listen or not but least i fitted rcd protection on all 230v outlets.

Ahh thats interesting.
Cant say I have ever come across that sort of situation.
Our factories pretty clean and most of the hand tools are battery powered but I shall keep that in mind for the future